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+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - ReneZ - 01-07-2023
It is clear that terminology will always create confusion, unless one is super accurate in every word and phrase. Here, there is a difference between what we see on the page and what we think that it represents.
What we see are tiny little women that historically have been called nymphs. Then there is the occasional one that looks more male than female.
What they represent may be women, stars, spirits and possibly other things. Nobody can be sure. These are opinions
Calling them nymphs can be confusing as it may indeed imply something, but calling them figurines, or something else, can have the same issue. This is just Voynich jargon.
My favourite example of confusing terminology is the missing "I think that" in every second phrase, but it would make for more boring reading. And I've done it myself.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 02-07-2023
The only thing I do is allege the opinion of someone who is considered an authority in this field such as Erwin Panofsky. I completely agree with him for other reasons that I have provided and that are complementary to his.
The problem with the Voynich is that anyone can make an opinion when some of us know that it takes many years of study to say anything with substance. The opinion of authentic experts is missed, but when someone with authority does so, attention is not paid.
RE: No text, but a visual code - ReneZ - 03-07-2023
I do fully agree with this. Not all opinions should be given the same weight.
On the other hand, this will hardly ever lead to 'less discussion'.
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 03-07-2023
Sounds good, but it doesn't work out very well. Which opinions should be given weight and which should not? If we listen to the experts, who are those experts? Was Newbold an expert, before he opened his mouth. Andromeda with a telescope is simply an anachronism. And the micro writing was technologically impossible.
The opinions to be given weight are the ones that have the best evidence. That is evidence that connects to historical material, with even more significant evidence present internally in the VMs illustrations. Take the example above of the cosmic spindle. The identification of the 'thing' was unclear, hypothetical, or just plain wrong - *until* the discovery of the illustration. Then it was perfectly clear what the VMs *spindle holder* was holding. It's the cosmic spindle. Internally, the identity of the spindle is confirmed by the remarkable similarity of its shape and the presence of its markings. This is evidence.
The *spindle holder* (the possessor of the cosmic spindle) is identified in the historical illustration and in Greek mythology. Nothing hard about that. It's more evidence.
What's the matter with the old experts, then? Apparently, they missed it. And a whole lot more.
Obviously, there is a significant advantage to be gained from internet access.
RE: No text, but a visual code - bi3mw - 03-07-2023
(03-07-2023, 08:55 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I do fully agree with this. Not all opinions should be given the same weight.
I always try to look at all opinions with as little bias as possible. Even if a theesis is not carefully worked out, it can still provide interesting food for thought.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 08-07-2023
Just as we recognize the saints by the objects they hold (for example Saint Peter with the keys), the female figures can be identified by the objects that some of them carry. In previous posts I mentioned spindles and rings, both objects that allude to the fixed stars. Now I will do it with this strange element that one of the girls holds when she slides down.
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It is a pilgrim's staff, as we can verify with this illustration from around 1400 of pilgrims in Rome.
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In the Voynich the stars descend on a pilgrimage from the roof of the universe. They come down to Earth to give their virtues to medicinal plants. I think the allegory is clear.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 12-07-2023
It is impossible to know what the Voynich script is without first deciphering its iconography. For our mentality the script (a set of astronomical symbols in my opinion) is so absurd that it can only be understood after the iconological study.
On the zodiacal pages and Quire 13 there are more than 500 female figures. They all represent the same thing: stars, the fixed stars. Not all those in the sky, but those included in the zodiacal constellations, which according to Ptolemy have the greatest influence on terrestrial events.
I once wrote that in the English language it is more difficult than in languages derived from Latin or German to find out why the author has drawn such an enormous number of female figures. It is simply because in English there is no grammatical gender. If I say star I don't know if that object is male or female. In the other languages the noun star is marked with the feminine gender.
It may seem trivial, but I think it is not. The author of the Voynich could not personify the stars in any other way than through female figures.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Aga Tentakulus - 12-07-2023
I know what you mean. For example, "der Mars" (Roman god of war and male).
"die Venus" (Roman goddess of love and female). Here the articles "der" = male and "die" = female.
But now (according to Wiki) Venus used to be regarded as the goddess of agriculture.
Example Wiki:
The assumption that Venus was originally an Italic goddess of arable land, gardens, spring and as such a goddess of farmers[1] and vintners is no longer held.
Now the nymphs could also be plants, which also comes close to the VM.
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RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 12-07-2023
Great illustration to show the prevalence of pilgrim staffs in Rome relevant to VMs dating. How many examples are in the VMs?
There is no question that the VMs "people" in the Zodiac, (predominantly female) with their star-shaped mylar balloons, have some sort of celestial, astral, sidereal or similar interpretations. However, I do not believe one size fits all. The VMs is too complex.
In the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. illustration, there are several 'women' wading and one floating in what is ostensibly water. At the top is a wide structure and at its extremities there are segments of a nebuly line The lines are etymologically indicative of clouds. A little further down is an arch with a blue stripe. This is somewhat indicative of a rainbow. Medieval rainbows rarely display anything close to a full and accurate spectrum of colors. You don't get Rainbow Bright.
So, in the illustration, there is water, there are clouds and a rainbow, and therefore some rain, and there are no star balloons, then there are no sidereal or astral attributes to be found. Celestial is good, but these 'nymphs' are aquatic and related to clouds and rain, in other words, meteorology or weather. There is more than one kind of nymph. The evidence is in the illustration.
Perhaps this is the other, unseen side of things. The stars can shine on the plants all you want, but if those plants don't get some water, they're probably toast.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 13-07-2023
That the nymphs are aquatic is for me the biggest error in the iconographic interpretation of the VM. And it is not a small error, but the one that prevents us from seeing clearly what Quire 13 means.
In f75r, as in others from Quire 13, there is that strange structure at the top, that kind of pineapple that is nothing more than the representation of the roof of the medieval universe. This will be better understood if you read the article that Koen G. and Cary Rapaport presented last year at the Malta Conference, in which they relate the recurring motif of the tents or canopies on the Voynich as a symbol of the sky.
In these structures or pineapples, the blue color is always present as a sign of the color of the sky. Certainly in Quire 13 the color green follows blue and this is important: green is lower. The interpretation of this is not easy, but I doubt the common explanation that green symbolizes water. It could be but it could be something else.
One of the most striking parallels is that in a large number of plants we see the flowers painted blue, which is rare, and the leaves naturally green. It is as if in the author's mind blue and green are interchangeable. I believe that this symbolism is the one that is present in Quire 13, but without forgetting that blue always means the color of the sky, as we also see in the Rosettes.