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RE: No text, but a visual code - bi3mw - 10-06-2023
(10-06-2023, 07:04 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... which is why perhaps the signs of Aries and Taurus are repeated in the Voynich ...
Just for the sake of completeness, can you perhaps post the folios in which Aries and Taurus are repeatedly depicted ? That would make it easier for some to understand what you mean. Not everyone has dealt with the subject before.
Edit: ok, here it is.
Taurus, folios 71v & 72r1
Aries, folios 71r & 70v1
RE: No text, but a visual code - merrimacga - 11-06-2023
(10-06-2023, 07:04 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.We live surrounded by artificial light and we do not realize the importance that natural light had in those days. In the Northern Hemisphere, now that it is spring and we are approaching the solstice, we see how light is gaining time over darkness. Light is vital for plants, which is why perhaps the signs of Aries and Taurus are repeated in the Voynich, to underline the idea of their importance in the plant cycle.
Does anyone think there may be another reason?
I also wondered why two charts each for Aries and Taurus. I'm sure I'm probably repeating what others have already said but could it be as simple as practicality? The author/scribe, presumably having completed the chart for Pisces first, may have decided when moving on to Aries and Taurus next that 30 nymphs on one chart was too much illustration for just one chart. Then after completing those four charts, he or she may have changed their mind and went back to one chart each for the rest.
Practicality seems the most plausible explanation but, if it wasn't that, and I'm just spitballing here, perhaps it had something to do with the calendar in use at that time or perhaps certain astrological signs, whether because of the plant cycle or for medicinal or other purposes, were weighted as more important than others.
Usage of the Gregorian calendar didn't start until 1582. Prior to that the Julian calendar, or a local variation thereof, would have been in use. Both of these are solar calendars. But, if the VM is Germanic, the Germanic peoples had their own calendars, likely lunisolar, possibly runic, in use up to the early Middle Ages, possibly beyond. Their days were different too, starting at sunset. It's not a huge difference but I wonder if this could affect how we interpret the VM charts.
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Medieval doctors used astrology for and would have consulted star charts, for the position of the Moon and the planets, before treating patients. At one time, they were required by law to do so before certain procedures. They associated certain planets with certain body parts and certain diseases and certain Zodiac signs with certain body parts. And they associated certain activities with certain Zodiac signs. Aries was associated with the head, face, brain and eyes and working in the fields while Mars was associated with the arteries and cuts, injuries, bruises, fevers and inflammations. Taurus was associated with the throat, neck, thyroid gland, and vocal tract and picking flowers and making butter while Saturn was associated with the veins and poisoning as well as diseases of decline, collapse, wasting, blockages and contraction. Not that other body parts, illnesses, diseases or activities weren't also important but to the author of the VM, especially as a medical and botanical text, March and April may have been considered worthy of more attention by that person at the time.
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Hmm...
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 11-06-2023
The VMs representations of Aries and Taurus are examples of pairing by division. The occupants of the medallions of the first five houses of the VMs zodiac sequence are all paired. That is why Pisces is first. Pairing is an important concept, not only in religious law (Deuteronomy), but also in the VMs use of heraldry.
The number 'five' may also have some significance. In the 4 x 17 symbol sequence (f57v), the fifth symbol is an inverted 'V'. And 'V' is the Roman numeral '5'.
How are things hidden in plain sight?
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 12-06-2023
Speculation, speculation and more speculation.
What is needed to penetrate the Voynich are facts and nothing but facts. It is a fact that Aries and Taurus are duplicated. It is a fact that Capricorn and Aquarius are missing, which is complementary to the above.
It is a fact that plants need light and heat. It is a fact that more or less half of the book is occupied by herbs and the other half by cosmological drawings. The consequence is clear.
RE: No text, but a visual code - ReneZ - 12-06-2023
Dear Antonio,
I do not wish to challenge your experience with historical documents, but from a logical standpoint, the "consequences" are speculation.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 12-06-2023
Hello René
I respect your opinions a lot and I can accept what you say without problems. Actually, since the Voynich is a unique document we can only speculate about it. But there are degrees and degrees of speculation. In this case, honestly, what I maintain I think is close to common sense according to what we know of the Middle Ages.
RE: No text, but a visual code - R. Sale - 12-06-2023
No one should doubt the potential for various lines of astrological speculation in medieval investigations. The problem is with the specific details.
I have not offered speculation. I have offered the 'facts' that were subsequently requested. The occupants of the medallions of first five houses of the VMs zodiac sequence are paired. A typical "zodiac" starts with Aries and ends with Pisces. The VMs starts with Pisces. Calendars are somewhat less restrictive in their starting points. Having Pisces first brings the sequence of pairings to five examples. Pisces is a pair of fish. Aries and Taurus are divided into pairs. Gemini is a pair of complementary opposites: male and female. Cancer is also a second pair of aquatic animals. The pairing of aquatic and land animals is compounded. Paring is a significant concept. The VMs artist has created a structure to indicate the presence of this concept as recorded in the text. Then, it is up to the reader to be able to interpret the concept which the artist has indicated.
The concept of pairing and pairs of pairs is then transferred to the tub patterns at the top of VMs Pisces. These tub patterns are best compared to the basic patterns of medieval heraldry. And if the chevrons at 3 o'clock are not sufficiently convincing, an improved familiarity with basic heraldry might be helpful.
The concept of sidereal influences on plants was widely accepted at the time. The problem for VMs investigations is, where does this take the investigation? If it is true, then what? And where is the speculation?
RE: No text, but a visual code - ReneZ - 13-06-2023
Antonio, of course there is a difference between educated guesses and speculation, and there is a whole range in between.
Also the follow-up post of R.Sale has a mixture of facts and opinions.
We have a few more facts about the zodiac illustrations.
It starts with Pisces, and this is real. It cannot be the result of moving pages around or incorrect binding. No matter how one re-folds the few sheets, Aries will always follow Pisces. Also, the order of the signs is the correct one, and the pages clearly have not been moved around in this part.
It is also a fact that there are missing pages for the missing signs.
It is possible that the missing signs were on that folio, but we cannot be certain.
It is also a fact that there are plenty of manuscripts with incomplete zodiac cycles, and I am not aware of any cases where a special meaning has been given to this, apart from them having been lost, or the copy being incomplete. However, it could be that there are such cases, and I would be interested to know.
I have my own hypothesis about the doubling (splitting in halves) of Aries and Taurus, but I will not even try to argue that this is more likely or less likely than a deliberate emphasis on these signs.
The MS pages are taller than they are wide, so the size of a circle is limited by the width of the page. In the case of Pisces, there happened to be a more or less square page, so the 'author' could draw a large cirlce.
For the next sign(s) he decided to make the circles smaller to fit on normal pages. After having done Aries and Taurus, he decided to compromise and cramp the larger circles on the smaller pages.
As if he started off ambitiously, but decided to finish it more quickly.
The reduced quality of the later circles matches with this possibility: no more painting, and less attention to equal spacing between the nymphs.
But it remains a hypothesis.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 13-06-2023
I understand what you are saying René. It could be how you interpret it. It seems to me a plausible hypothesis, although I still believe that there is an intention in the design.
Since I started studying the Voynich, I have the feeling that there is an underlying intentionality in all its parts and that they are interconnected.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 14-06-2023
Understanding the Voynich iconography and seeing that it is closely related to that of its time is essential to interpret this codex. We are going to see it through an element whose meaning is often confused and which are those wavy lines that seem to interweave. They represent the end of the medieval universe. Beyond is only God and the blessed.
This is an image from Oresme's Livre du ciel et du monde
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In addition to the wavy line, you can see those small mounds in what I will call mushrooms, to better understand each other.
In the Grandes heures de Rohan we also see the wavy line and the mounds and behind God with two angels
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It is exactly the same as what we see in the Voynich. We see it in the Rosettes, which are a representation of the medieval universe
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And we also see it in some cosmological diagrams, like the one of the f70r1. A strange composition with the mushrooms and their mounds that is easy to interpret seeing the parallel images of the time
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