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+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Analysis of the text (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-41.html)
+--- Thread: No text, but a visual code (/thread-2384.html)
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RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 11-03-2023
Yes Mark, 100 pages and I expect many more while this forum is active. I am convinced that I am on the right track.
Addsamuels, just because there are certain rules, which there certainly are, doesn't necessarily mean that the script is a language with sounds. From the most remote of the history of humanity, men have also used visual signals to convey a message.
The groupings of glyphs may very well be positions of celestial objects, some very special and that is why they are repeated more.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Arichichi - 11-03-2023
Are you suggesting that the glyphs behave like Chinese?
Because, at most, if you use FSG for example,' youd get around 40 symbols, which wouldn't be enough for a language inventory.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 12-03-2023
No, I am not saying that the VM script works like the Chinese language. This makes use of pictograms but it is a logographic or syllabic linguistic system.
What I am saying is that the VM script is a totally pictographic or ideographic communication system. For example, the glyph c represents the moon and the gallows the position of the sun in both hemispheres.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 18-03-2023
One of the funniest things in the history of Voynich research is the attempts to assign it a certain language. It has been tested with all kinds of languages: Western, Eastern, Pre-Columbian, Proto-Romance, and of course the classical ones, Latin, Greek, Hebrew.
Regarding Hebrew, I remember that a few years ago some researchers with the help of Artificial Intelligence translated some groups of glyphs into this language. It was funny because the result had nothing to do with the Voynich iconography. It was nothing about botany or cosmology, which the text is supposed to be about.
I believe that whoever intends to defend the hypothesis of any language must translate at least one line. And a line that makes sense and is consistent with what we see in the book.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 23-03-2023
I mentioned Artificial Intelligence before, something that with the new advances is now very topical. I don't think a solution will ever be reached no matter how sophisticated and powerful the algorithms are. For one reason: the starting point is wrong. AI is asked to find a language, whatever it is, natural or encrypted. And the problem is that there aren't any.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Aga Tentakulus - 23-03-2023
I would be a little more cautious with this statement.
Some claim that Google translates everything.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 27-03-2023
I have sometimes thought that if there were no script in the VM, only images, this book would have been understood long ago.
The iconography is rare and original, but nothing that could not be interpreted by historians of art or of mentalities. The problem with VM is that since it was discovered it has been investigated mainly by linguists and cryptographers. In fact, it is still like that, despite the evident failure of its results.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Koen G - 27-03-2023
(27-03-2023, 10:01 AM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have sometimes thought that if there were no script in the VM, only images, this book would have been understood long ago.
I agree that more attention from trained art historians is necessary, but I don't think it's true that the script distracts from the study of the text.
Take as an example Alain Touwaide and the plant images in the Voynich. He is an absolute authority on herbal manuscripts, and we do know that he spent a lot of time studying the VM. Not so long ago (I think it was during covid lockdown?), he even shared that he was studying the large plants again. Yet despite his efforts, and those of many others, both qualified specialists and amateurs, and even including sincere perseverance by Voynich's widow and her entourage, no solution has been found. I even suspect that there is not a single herbal manuscript that has received so much attention from humanity as a whole.
You say: the images can be understood, if only more qualified people would look at them.
But I think the opposite is true: many qualified people have looked at the images (probably many more than we know about, this is one of the most famous manuscripts in the world), but the images are a difficult challenge and most aren't willing to risk their reputation.
RE: No text, but a visual code - Antonio García Jiménez - 29-03-2023
Fortunately, I'm old enough to care about my reputation.
If I remember correctly, Alain Touwaide did not believe that the VM was a herbal medicine, but some kind of parody or game. And even he suspected that it might be a fake.
But the problem is that the VM is not just a collection of plants, but something else. If we want to simplify, it is a set of pages with plants and another set of cosmological diagrams. And you don't need to know much about the medieval mind to put the two together and make sense of it.
You, Koen, are one of the members of the forum who have paid the most attention to iconography and who have made the most progress in terms of its interpretation, ideas that I share. The problem is that you don't get to unify those ideas and relate them to the script, but I think it's not very complicated.
RE: No text, but a visual code - bi3mw - 29-03-2023
(29-03-2023, 03:49 PM)Antonio García Jiménez Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If I remember correctly, Alain Touwaide did not believe that the VM was a herbal medicine, but some kind of parody or game. And even he suspected that it might be a fake.
I assume you are referring to the following statement by Alain Touwaide:
Quote:The manuscript borrows some iconographic motifs, but assembles them into unrealistic figures. Therefore, there is a coherence from the point of view of the iconographic language, but an incoherence in the assembly. And this aspect makes me say that it was not a herbarium for medical practice, but a creation, a caricature, an imitation, a game," Touwaide explained.
The explicit statement that the VMS is a fake is not to be found here. Maybe you have a source for this statement ?