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+--- Thread: alternating patterns (/thread-2357.html)
RE: alternating patterns - MarcoP - 30-03-2018
(30-03-2018, 12:21 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Regarding Marco's suggestion that daiin is a candidate for "and" - I disagree. According to Job's tool, there are eleven folios ending with daiin, and I can't imagine a functional block of text ending with "and", unless the language has some weird positional rule for placing "and" after the words that it connects.
Thank you, Anton!
The Romany taj/thaj seems to be infix, so your observation excludes its identity with the Voynichese 'daiin'. It remains an example of a reduplicating function word.
As Emma wrote You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
Quote:Some languages use a clitic to express 'and'. Arabic, Hebrew, even Latin do this.
Her reference is to the Latin -que, which indeed appears "after the words that it connects" - I have never seen it written as a separate word, so the relevance of this example is limited in this context.
I am not aware of languages that have a word-end conjunction together with reduplication, but my linguistic knowledge is very limited.
RE: alternating patterns - doranchak - 30-03-2018
(30-03-2018, 12:21 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Last but not least, one should mind the possibility of shuffling. Indeed, there are indications that the text might have been put down in several passes, which, among other things, suggests shuffling.
Is there a thread here or link with more info about that? I haven't seen that before (I'm relatively new to Voynich studies).
RE: alternating patterns - Anton - 30-03-2018
(30-03-2018, 12:54 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As Emma wrote You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
Quote:Some languages use a clitic to express 'and'. Arabic, Hebrew, even Latin do this.
Her reference is to the Latin -que, which indeed appears "after the words that it connects" - I have never seen it written as a separate word, so the relevance of this example is limited in this context.
I am not aware of languages that have a word-end conjunction together with reduplication, but my linguistic knowledge is very limited.
Yes, indeed. I already forgot about that discussion.
RE: alternating patterns - Anton - 30-03-2018
(30-03-2018, 01:01 PM)doranchak Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(30-03-2018, 12:21 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Last but not least, one should mind the possibility of shuffling. Indeed, there are indications that the text might have been put down in several passes, which, among other things, suggests shuffling.
Is there a thread here or link with more info about that? I haven't seen that before (I'm relatively new to Voynich studies).
Yes, there is, although it might have been not a dedicated thread. I remember Wladimir and/or JKP even provided some screenshots. I guess this can be searched by the key phrases "several passes" or "more than one pass", since those are phrases which I use when I express myself on this matter in Elglish, and I was a participant to that discussion.
RE: alternating patterns - Helmut Winkler - 30-03-2018
Just to mention it: scribes of the 15th century used some double and triple characters to denote the end of a text or a text passage
RE: alternating patterns - ReneZ - 30-03-2018
Hi Marco, this is very interesting.
I haven't yet have time to fully digest it, but I have an initial question:
how did you compute the 'expected' occurences of X as part of 'X Y X Z'?
Intuitively, for the more frequent cases of X, the actual number should clearly exceed the statistically expected number, but this intuition could be wrong.
RE: alternating patterns - MarcoP - 30-03-2018
(30-03-2018, 08:57 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Marco, this is very interesting.
I haven't yet have time to fully digest it, but I have an initial question:
how did you compute the 'expected' occurences of X as part of 'X Y X Z'?
Intuitively, for the more frequent cases of X, the actual number should clearly exceed the statistically expected number, but this intuition could be wrong.
Hello Rene,
I am glad you find this interesting and I hope I haven't made any major error.
I computed the expected number in the same way as I did for expected repetition / reduplication:
N*N/TOT
Where N is the number of occurrences of word "X" and TOT is the total number of words in the text.
If a word occurs 50 times in a 1000 long text, it occurs 5% of the times.
5% of the 50 occurrences are expected to match the pattern:
50*50/1000=50*5%=2.5
This is likely overestimated, because I include in this number some combinations I actually excluded from the "actual" counts (e.g. X X X Z): but I think the impact of this imprecision is small.
As a VMS example: 'daiin' occurs 845 times in the ms, which has a total of 37718 words.
I computed the expected number of occurrences of the pattern daiin Y daiin Z as 845*845/37718=18.9
As you can see from the graphs, it seems that different languages behave differently. The most frequent word exceeds the expectation in Latin, but not in Italian and English.
RE: alternating patterns - Anton - 30-03-2018
No that's not correct.
The logic should be that you should estimate the probability of the word to be "daiin", provided that the immediately preceding biword (is "biword" a valid English word?) is "daiin X". Now, the probability of the biword "daiin X" to occur is not the same as the probability of "daiin" to occur, since it should account for the exclusion of "daiin daiin" (as it does not fit the pattern).
Now, in estimating this, one could perform actual counts across the VMS corpus, but then the "expected" values would be the same as observed. Alternatively, one could assume some random word distribution, e.g. Zipf's law, for the "expectation".
When calculating this for King's Bible etc, the expectations can be based on more broad language statistics, but for the Voynichese we don't have anything beyond the VMS itself.
RE: alternating patterns - Anton - 30-03-2018
And actually what I wrote is not fully correct, because we should exclude "daiin daiin" as the second biword also.
So basically, you should estimate probability of the biword "daiin X" to occur, provided that the preceding biword is also "daiin X" (where X stands for "any, except daiin")
RE: alternating patterns - davidjackson - 30-03-2018
Biword doesn't exist The technical name word be the reduplicant.