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+--- Thread: f31v (/thread-2311.html)
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f31v - Koen G - 22-02-2018
The plant on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a weird one, but that goes without saying. I have no idea of what it could be; but just came across an image in the Leiden Dioscorides "f094a" which reminded me of it. Note how the saw-like leaves extend horizontally and the way they overlap to form one surface. This alone wouldn't be enough, but there's also a similarity in the screen-shape of the flowers. Even the arrangement of the roots is similar, although the VM has more of them. Unfortunately I don't read Arabic so I don't know which plant this is.
RE: f31v - -JKP- - 22-02-2018
There are many plants that are asymmetric, but I've often wondered if VMS 31v is mnemonic, because it looks like it's "posed" as though to represent an angel or something along those lines (arms, wings). There are many plants with angelic or "Mary" or sanctus references in their names.
Very good find in terms of the way the leaves are attached (stacked on one another) and both drawings have similar umbellate flowers (or seeds), along with the curved, splayed roots.
I've seen this manuscript, but I can't remember if I went through all the plants. Sometimes I get halfway through an herbal and get so herbed out I need to look at something else for a while and then I come across something else and forget to get back to the previous one.
RE: f31v - Koen G - 22-02-2018
According to Sadek (1983) The Arabic Materia Medica of Dioscorides, this plant corresponds to shepherds' purse in the Juliana Anicia Codex and the Morgan Dioscorides (small inset). As you can see it is severely stylized in comparison to the Vienna MS. I'm not sure what the Morgan MS is up to...
RE: f31v - -JKP- - 22-02-2018
Yes! Big difference.
The Julia Anicia drawing is instantly recognizable and well-drawn, the other is a head-scratcher, it could be one of hundreds of different plants.
RE: f31v - Koen G - 22-02-2018
Once you know which plant it is though, you can see nicely how the Leiden MS takes the components of the plants and turns them into a symmetrical "plant statue".
The VM does something similar in my opinion, but it's got its own agenda.
RE: f31v - -JKP- - 22-02-2018
Excellent example.
Your post perfectly illustrates why it's important to study HOW an illustrator expresses certain aspects of the plant, like the clasping leaves, the seeds... Once you see the relationship between the drawing and the plant, the way the idea of each part is codified, it makes complete sense.
RE: f31v - Koen G - 23-02-2018
It's a good opportunity to compare art styles. Notice how, as opposed to the Leiden MS, the VM does intend to convey a sense of depth. It uses various shades of green on the leave mass to the right. The "torches" on the left have been drawn with depth in mind, and the top flowers look 3D as well.
I don't think the VM artists are of the type that would start inventing 3D effects themselves, so I think the source for at least some of these plants was of the Byzantine stile.
RE: f31v - ReneZ - 23-02-2018
One needs to be a bit careful here.
The illustrations in the Leiden MS (I assume it is Leiden Or. 289) are most probably derived entirely from other manuscripts (and those from other manuscripts), so the link with nature is quite remote.
For the Voynich MS we don't know for certain, but no earlier manuscripts are known from which these drawings may have been copied. A link with nature is possible.
With respect to style, there are several aspects that play a role.
2D vs 3D. (are we looking at a flattened image, or are certain elements behind and partially hidden by others?)
Symmetrical or not.
Squeezed aspect ratio or not.
It is not unusual for a single MS to have illustrations in several different styles. This is already the case for the Vienna Dioscorides. A very good description of these various aspects can be found in the 1974 publication about the Carrara herbal, by Felix Baumann (in German).
The Voynich MS clearly has some 3D aspects. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a very good example.
Many illustrations are not symmetrical.
I have not seen examples of squeezed illustrations. These are typical for copies where not enough space was available, such as the Naples Dioscorides, and some of the alchemical herbals.
RE: f31v - Koen G - 23-02-2018
The most extreme example of a manuscript mixing styles I've found so far is Topkapi Cod. 2127, from which I posted the grapevine earlier. It's a shame that not more of this MS is available online, but the few examples I've found show a huge chasm between Byzantine naturalism and Islamic abstraction. Here's lentil and grapevine:
Both could be used as extreme examples of their respective styles - the "lentil" could be mistaken for a mere decorative element if it weren't in a Dioscirodes: flat, abstract, symmetrical...
Collins mentions that a few other images in this MS, like garlic, are naturalistic as well, I'd love to see those.
RE: f31v - -JKP- - 24-02-2018
It would be impossible to ID that drawing as a lentil plant without an accompanying label. It's far more similar to thousands of other plants than to the finger-leaved, viny lentil plant:
![[Image: lentil+3.jpg]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-TkdFpIB8EO0/TsIJFcpwmTI/AAAAAAAAC7I/Oc_54iOEmo8/s640/lentil+3.jpg)
In fact, this drawing looks more like lentil (it even has double-dot pods) than the pink/brown big-leaved drawing above:
![[Image: sf65-271-1v.jpg]](https://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/is/web-large/sf65-271-1v.jpg)