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+--- Thread: Browsing 'Aries' (/thread-2211.html)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - ReneZ - 17-12-2017
Dew claws:
![[Image: goat1-vi.jpg]](https://images61.fotki.com/v432/photos/9/127099/8283206/goat1-vi.jpg)
And as for drawn intentionally:
Quote:As it was - and as you may remember - the only overt reaction I received was emphatic disbelief and (as I recall) assertions that I suffered from hallucinations
A link to such reactions would be much appreciated.
(I lost count how many times such remarks have been made here about the old mailing list).
RE: Browsing 'Aries' - Koen G - 17-12-2017
I moved the goat-sheep posts over here. Can someone fill me in on the dewclaw discussion? Is the idea that goats have more pronounced dewclaws than sheep? The green creature appears to have some serious talons there.
RE: Browsing 'Aries' - -JKP- - 18-12-2017
(17-12-2017, 08:43 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I moved the goat-sheep posts over here. Can someone fill me in on the dewclaw discussion? Is the idea that goats have more pronounced dewclaws than sheep? The green creature appears to have some serious talons there.
I haven't read any previous dew claw discussions, so I don't know where people stand on this, but I glanced through my images of non-zodiac sheep and immediately found many with significant "dew claw" bumps on sheep drawings. Sorry, I can't post all the sources right (it's an extremely busy time of year business-wise).
Also, glancing through zodiac-symbol Aries, there are more:
If you look closely at Cod. Pal. Germ. 291 (which has several similarities to the VMS), the "dew claw" is drawn with the same dark point as the hoofs.
Note also, in this manuscript: long-nosed double-dorsal Pisces, crayfish Cancer, leg-tail tongue Leo, sitting Virgo, no-figure Libra, and crossbowman. Yes, it's later (c. 1480), but one of the closer matches to the VMS zodiac symbols in terms of details.
More examples of dew-claw Aries:
- Walters MS W.26
- KB 72 A 23 Liber Floridus
- horselike ram with long neck and dew claws BAV MS Reg. Lat. 438
- Lansdowne MS 383 Shaftesbury Psalter (small and hard to see, but two legs have dew claws)
- BL Additional 22413 (pointy dew claws)
- Arundel 60 Psalter (rounded prominent dew claws)
- BSB Clm 13076, [S.l.], 1356 [BSB-Hss Clm 13076] (rounded bumps)
- iluminado por Joseph Asarfati (c. 1300) (rounded bumps)
- Add MS 54179 (rounded bumps)
- Graz MS.286 (small but pointy dew claws, browsing, hugging couple, long-nosed fish, no-hand libra, human archer)
- Walters W.90 (pointy, but not quite as claw-like as some of the others)
- Walters W.196 (rounded bumps)
- Walters W.734 (prominent pointy dew claws and long horse-like neck)
- Codex Vindobonensis Palatinus 1982 (rounded bump)
- BNF Ms. Lat. 7028 (semi-pointy bumps)
- Trinity B-11-5 (prominent bumps)
RE: Browsing 'Aries' - Diane - 19-12-2017
THanks to all for the various pictures, which show clearly that the item about 'dew claws' can't be used to decide whether the browsing animals are meant for sheep or for goats, since both sheep and goats have them.
Good point. I'd only encountered dew-claws as the residual toe-and-claw in dogs and cats -should have looked up wikipedia.
I didn't start the thread about that, though. It was about animals which do, in fact, browse versus those who graze, and the relative frequency with which European and other breeds do that.
The point of my second illustration was that in one part of medieval Europe, at least, a breed of sheep was known which does graze, which has horns that could be mistaken for goat's horns, and which (as shown in that sculpture) indicates some knowledge of fat-tailed breeds in mainland Europe.
The last point is relevant because another fat-tailed breed appears to me indicated by the drawing on f.116v.
I'm afraid that when comparisons are offered from manuscripts and printed books, I tend to pay most attention to the temporal and geographic range the researcher shows they have investigated.
Anyway, my question to Rene seems to have been overlooked, or Rene distracted from it, so I'll ask again for his assistance:
Quote:Rene, could you please say more about Pamela Richards and that other person - especially when and where we can read their comments and any other insights they may have had.
A link would be ideal, or a book reference, if you found in by reading a book. Even a rough idea of when, or where you read those statements - was that what you meant to say when referring back to Santacoloma's mailing list? But it would be most value to be able to read and cite the original source, since otherwise it sounds insubstantial.
Can you recall any details of where or when you read/heard those people share their opinions?
Thank you in advance.
RE: Browsing 'Aries' - ReneZ - 06-02-2018
By coincidence, I just found that the animals in the Aries zodiac illustrations were already called goats in 1946, by Albert Howard Carter.
He has lots of other interesting opinions, though his description of the organisation of the zodiac section seems a bit confused.
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RE: Browsing 'Aries' - Helmut Winkler - 06-02-2018
(06-02-2018, 05:25 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.By coincidence, I just found that the animals in the Aries zodiac illustrations were already called goats in 1946, by Albert Howard Carter.
He has lots of other interesting opinions, though his description of the organisation of the zodiac section seems a bit confused.
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Rene, do you know who Carter was?
RE: Browsing 'Aries' - ReneZ - 06-02-2018
He was a historian of intelligence services. Both Anne Nill and Friedman sought his opinion.
D'Imperio quotes him several times.
I have a vague recollection that he was also a handwriting expert, so his opinion of a single handwriting in the MS probably should have more weight than Currier's 'several hands', as Currier certainly did not have such expertise.
Apart from that I don't know much.
The point here was that he is also calling the animals 'goats', which was the topic of this thread.
RE: Browsing 'Aries' - Koen G - 06-02-2018
He apparently also saw reasons to attribute the penmanship to a copyist rather than an author.
About the goats he seems to think that there may have been a mess-up of folios maybe he didn't think these were supposed to be Aries originally.
RE: Browsing 'Aries' - bi3mw - 09-04-2019
I think the Aries show stylistic similarities in the presentation. The VMS is just simpler.
![[Image: aries.png]](http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/mwille2/VMS/aries.png)
Astrologisch-astronomische Sammlung : Ms. germ. fol. 244 , [um 1445], You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
RE: Browsing 'Aries' - -JKP- - 09-04-2019
Bi3mw, you're going to hate me for saying this, but except for the lifted leg, they don't seem that similar to me...
The heads are turned in different directions, the opposite leg is lifted (opposite back leg also), the hips are different, the hind "knee" is different, the hooves and dewlaps are different, the horn textures are different, the coat texture is different, the tails are quite different (one is much longer), the landscape is different.
I think it's more than just simplification. I think it's different.
The enclosing space is circular. That's the same.
But... don't get mad at me yet
, I'll look through my zodiac database and see if your example is MORE similar than others. You might still convince me. Give me 15 minutes to check...