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+--- Thread: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? (/thread-2209.html)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - MarcoP - 16-07-2018
(16-07-2018, 09:20 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It's fine for me, I think you're right in that the current statement assumes too much. Maybe we'll wait to see what Marco, JKP think? IIRC you can edit the essentials forum, right?
I agree with VView's observation.
The blue line seems to have been added later and it is less accurately executed than the dark ink drawing. My impression (but this is subjective interpretation) is that it was a clumsy attempt to "normalize" the weird Voynichese design, by turning the two tailed stars into the conventional string connecting the two fish.
The Scorpio description You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
Quote:Star connected to mouth by line
I think it is important that the fish follow the same pattern. Maybe we could say "The mouth of each fish is connected to a star by a line"?
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - VViews - 16-07-2018
Thanks MarcoP,
"My impression (but this is subjective interpretation) is that it was a clumsy attempt to "normalize" the weird Voynichese design, by turning the two tailed stars into the conventional string connecting the two fish. "
Yes. And since we are discussing impressions, I will go even further:
As I said in my post I think this provides a pretty strong clue that the blue painter didn't have the same background as, or wasn't aware of the source material used by, the illustrator. He wasn't 'in".
As you say he tried to "normalize" something he perceived as a mistake or that was foreign to him.
Especially if the reason he painted the line going around the fish rather than in between them was because the word "mars" was already there. In that case that would mean the blue painter would have been totally removed from the original Voynich-making process.
I think this provides a good reason to not take the blue paint in Voynich illustrations as any kind of basis for our search for comparisons.
The implications of this, of course, extend to Q13 and to the astronomical drawings as well.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - VViews - 16-07-2018
Sorry, I veered OT in my above post without addressing the main issue.
I agree with MarcoP 's proposed wording above.
Regarding the other statement, I would suggest something like simply: "the two fish are not connected by a line" . Or JKP' s version.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 16-07-2018
Alright, I'll leave it to you to adjust the line statements when David fixes the permissions. By the way, you could always start a thread about the authenticity of the paint job, it's a topic that's been under tge radar recently and I suspectt a lot could be said about it.
(As you see by the typos I'm typing on my phone and can't do much atm
)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - VViews - 16-07-2018
Done.
Thanks Koen Gh, and thanks to MarcoP and JKP for your cooperation.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - MarcoP - 16-07-2018
Koen,
you wrote:
Quote:Sagittarius
- Unique
- Trigger is in front of the nut, in other images and real crossbows it's always behind the nut. [KG, JKP]
But You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. you commented that "the trigger mechanism is between the string and the stirrup". Do not the two statements contradict each other?
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 16-07-2018
Well it depends of the perspective you see behind/in front of from. But either way this statement is ambiguous. It should be something like:
"The trigger bar is attached on the wrong side of the nut."
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - MarcoP - 16-07-2018
(16-07-2018, 09:20 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Well it depends of the perspective you see behind/in front of from. But either way this statement is ambiguous. It should be something like:
"The trigger bar is attached on the wrong side of the nut."
I don't understand how this could depend on the perspective. As you noticed in the post I linked, in the VMS the trigger(2) is in the same position as You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: between the nut(1) and the stirrup(3). How can we say it is "always behind the nut"?
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 16-07-2018
You can't have a nut that far behind a trigger. Where the trigger connects to the wood is where the nut is located (or very close to it). when the trigger is moved, the contact with the nut is loosened and the nut rotates to loose the cord.
To have a nut several inches behind the trigger, you would have to hollow out several inches of the handle (which greatly weakens it) and put a very complicated mechanism inside the tunnel to indirectly connect the nut and the trigger. It would not be natural or easy or strong or even reliable and those kinds of mechanisms didn't exist until a century or more later.
I looked at hundreds and hundreds of photos of real crossbows and many drawings of crossbows to make sure I wasn't overlooking something.
Now... someone might draw it wrongly if they lack a sense of physics, they do take liberties with the drawings and frequently rotate the handle in relation to the cord in order to show the trigger, but when I wrote about this I was specifically looking for signs in the VMS as to whether it was physically accurate and could be identified as a specific kind of bow.
It is not physically accurate with regard to the nut, therefore other parts might not be drawn correctly either and thus we cannot be sure it is a specific kind of bow. As to whether there are other bows drawn like that, that's quite possible. Whether there were anatomically incorrect bows in medieval illustration wasn't the main focus of my research at the time (many of them are inaccurate). I simply wanted to find out how much we could rely on the VMS details to tell us where the crossbow originated.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 16-07-2018
Right Marco, sorry I didn't check back with the other thread, I totally forgot about that image!
It's interesting because it's drawn with quite some detail. Would it have been an actual crossbow type that really had the trigger bar in this place? If you zoom in on the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., you see that all three crossbows in the foreground have this feature.
Either way, this means I will have to adjust the essentials thread from unique to rare and rephrase the wording.