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+--- Thread: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? (/thread-2209.html)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 11-12-2017
Blue Leo
- less than 2% of zodiacs
- found primarily in English manuscripts from about 830 (England) to about mid-13th century, but there are a couple from Normandy/Flanders and France within the same time period
- Cotton MS Galba A XVIII is on bumpy terrain but in a different pose, facing right, head turned
- the raised-foreleg pose is found in BL Add MS 21926, c. 1200s
- the tail between the legs standing straight up is in Walters W.37 c. 1305 (a blue lion raised-foreleg pose is also found on Seljuk tiles and other artifacts of the 13th century, but the tail curls under or is above the body without going through the legs, so the VMS pose is more similar to the drawing in Walters W.37 (possibly Normandy/Flanders region or England) than it is to the Seljuk tiles
Note that all these blue lions have manes.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - ReneZ - 15-12-2017
(deleted)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Paris - 16-12-2017
(11-12-2017, 04:07 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.a blue lion
I agree with the color but not for the animal.
I understand that the astrolgical sign for august is a lion or a lioness but this animal doesn't look like to a lion for me.
It seems to be more a leopard.
The first letters of leopard are LEO (like the astronomical sign).
Leopard is symbol of Normandy (french region).
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - ReneZ - 16-12-2017
Second attempt of my deleted post.
The problem is: I distinctly remember that I have seen, way in the past, a zodiac illustration with two lobsters. This was at a time when digitised manuscripts were extremely hard to find on the WWW.
Searching in the ML archive, I found this post:
Quote:Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:25:21 -0700 (PDT)
[...]
Dear all,
among the astronomical images which can be found at
the Unesco site I recently mentioned, there is one which
has a Scorpius image with two scorpions, while the
VMs has two lobsters for Cancer.
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
I asked an expert and he told me that such duplication is not
unusual in Arabic zodiac illustrations. (The Ms from which the
above illustration originates is a Latin translation made in Italy,
of an Arabic work, by one IBN al-HAYTHAM).
Not much, but just a little hint that some Arabic original may
be behind the zodiac section of the VMs.
Cheers, Rene
So, I started to wonder if I misremembered.
The MS in question turns out to be the Vatican MS Urb.Lat.1384, and the two scorpions are on f.19.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
This is not the image of the two lobsters that I remember, so I need to keep on wondering where it was....
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 16-12-2017
(16-12-2017, 03:45 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Second attempt of my deleted post.
The problem is: I distinctly remember that I have seen, way in the past, a zodiac illustration with two lobsters. This was at a time when digitised manuscripts were extremely hard to find on the WWW.
Searching in the ML archive, I found this post:
Quote:Tue, 14 Apr 1998 01:25:21 -0700 (PDT)
[...]
Dear all,
among the astronomical images which can be found at
the Unesco site I recently mentioned, there is one which
has a Scorpius image with two scorpions, while the
VMs has two lobsters for Cancer.
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
I asked an expert and he told me that such duplication is not
unusual in Arabic zodiac illustrations. (The Ms from which the
above illustration originates is a Latin translation made in Italy,
of an Arabic work, by one IBN al-HAYTHAM).
Not much, but just a little hint that some Arabic original may
be behind the zodiac section of the VMs.
Cheers, Rene
So, I started to wonder if I misremembered.
The MS in question turns out to be the Vatican MS Urb.Lat.1384, and the two scorpions are on f.19.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
This is not the image of the two lobsters that I remember, so I need to keep on wondering where it was....
Just a general observation on Urb. lat. 1384: I can see that some people might mistake the scorpions for lobsters (or perhaps remember them as lobsters as time passes), but this is definitely not two lobsters/crayfish. The stinger is present on the left one and it's clearly labeled Scorpioi[n]s.
One of the things that's interesting about this manuscript is that the constellations reflect very old versions where the star groups were broken up differently from what later became the conventional zodiacs.
If I remember correctly, the way they used to be designated was as two scorpions, with part of what we now attribute to Libra, being part of the second scorpion. That's why you sometimes see Libra and Scorpius combined in some of the older manuscripts. The claws that are holding the scales are now considered to be part of the scales. It's rearranged a little in later manuscripts to what we know today. I can't remember what astronomers call them now, but they still recognize two stars with the old name, as a pair.
I suppose it might be possible for someone to mistake it as Cancer if they were looking at an Arabic manuscript (a very old one) and could not read Arabic to know that it was Scorpius (although the stinger is usually present), but to move the pair of scorpions way out of sequence to turn them into a double Cancer, I don't know. I've never seen that mistake in other manuscripts. I suppose it's possible.
(16-12-2017, 08:49 AM)Paris Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(11-12-2017, 04:07 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.a blue lion
I agree with the color but not for the animal.
I understand that the astrolgical sign for august is a lion or a lioness but this animal doesn't look like to a lion for me.
It seems to be more a leopard.
The first letters of leopard are LEO (like the astronomical sign).
Leopard is symbol of Normandy (french region).
It looks more like a leopard to me too. I meant to call it blue Leo rather than blue lion, but I'm always in a hurry and make mistakes.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 16-12-2017
This handwriting and the Latin is relatively readable. On the preceding page, it says that this is the image for the star "Cor Scorpionis", which is two scorpions of which one is missing the tail. So these are not depictions of the Signs or constellations, but rather images for individual stars. So unless I'm mistaken, this has nothing to do with the Arab habit of showing a constellation and its mirror image, as was suggested on the mailing list.
"Cor Scorpionis, called ilcalb, is a red star in between two [less bright ones?]. Its image are two scorpions of which one has no tail."
(Latin experts may of course correct me on this
)Edit: this is interesting though. The images actually includes the "red star in between two others". Might this mean that Zodiac imagery which includes a single star, like many in the VM do, is actually gained from a source which describes images for individual stars? Most of the pictures in this particular MS do include more stars than one though.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 17-12-2017
(16-12-2017, 10:36 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This handwriting and the Latin is relatively readable. On the preceding page, it says that this is the image for the star "Cor Scorpionis", which is two scorpions of which one is missing the tail. So these are not depictions of the Signs or constellations, but rather images for individual stars. So unless I'm mistaken, this has nothing to do with the Arab habit of showing a constellation and its mirror image, as was suggested on the mailing list.
...
You're not mistaken. In this case it is a double star, not a mirror image (two viewpoints of the same thing). This manuscript leans more toward astronomy than astrology.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - ReneZ - 17-12-2017
One has to be very careful with the terms "astrology" and "astronomy", because the modern distinction does not apply to these times. (Marco already pointed it out too).
The reason why the ancients were interested in the stars was more like what we would now consider "astrology", and it wasn't nearly as "esoteric" as modern astrology is.
The text below the illustration, talking about two stars, refers to the illustration on the next page, and their "image" is that of two women.
In modern terminology, this MS leans more towards astrology, describing "images" of stars. The "image" of the two scorpions (with their specific details) belongs to the single star that is now known as Antares.
All of this would have been hardly possible to find out from the WWW in 1998, and once the wayback machine is back up and running, one can see just how little was visible then.
My original point, that I remember seeing an illustration of two lobsters for cancer, still remains open....
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 17-12-2017
Well, that's why I usually say, "It leans more toward astronomy than astrology..." since astronomy as we know it doesn't exist and the distinction between astrology and astronomy was significantly less than it is now.
There are some that lean toward astrology and kabbalah, often with magical associations, star seals, and associated incantations, and those that lean more toward describing the shapes of constellations which, in some areas, is as close as they got to astronomy in those days.
I suppose in modern terms it might lean more toward astrology, but in medieval terms, it's pretty "scientific" compared to manuscripts that describe hordes of angels and devils specifically associated with stars, with various means of invoking them and carving them onto talismans.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 24-12-2017
Added reference to Don's work, (posted here You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ) to Scorpio notes.