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+--- Thread: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? (/thread-2209.html)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - R. Sale - 08-12-2022
Thanks, Marco, great info. Looking at those pre-1450, I find the St. Gall image particularly interesting because it clearly has the 'bagpipe' sleeves that are another important element in the VMs illustration.
Strangely, I did not see this ms., Cod. Sang. 827, included in the sleeve investigation, though it has been mentioned otherwise.
What we are dealing with are particular concepts, ideas and specific elements, and not with the variations of 'appearance'.
Look at all the variations of Eleazar and the elephant.
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Does he kill the elephant with a sword or a spear? Is an elephant like a horse, but with a long nose? Does it have perky, little ears? How is the tower attached? Or does it just sit on / grow out of the elephant's back? How many men will the tower hold? On and on. Point is: Eleazar kills the elephant.
This investigation now has four points of correspondence: Sagittarius, human, crossbow, and sleeves. That seems fairly persuasive.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - R. Sale - 12-12-2022
Marco,
There's a Swabian crossbow Sagittarius in post #103 of this thread from nablator re: BSB Cgm 28.
The interesting thing there is the hat. Very similar to your listing dated 1474-75 Ludwig- Max UL. They have the same pointy brims. However, throughout the range of the other images, there are *no hats* and then there is the VMs archer's hat. A large and rather conspicuous hat. What's the info on hats???
While it may be redundant to some, it seems relevant to combine the "sleeves" investigation with this discussion, when we can combine with the Sagittarius images that are before 1450, specifically Cod. Sang. 827. While the manuscript itself is in the library at St. Gall, provenance apparently puts the origin in the area of Lake Constance. And the south side is Switzerland.
At the same time as the Cod. Sang. 827, there is a Swiss (1427) version of Speculum Humanae Salvationis, BKS Cod. membr. 8, with an interesting fashion depiction. What can I say?? Only a Swiss Absalom would be caught dead in bagpipe sleeves. The image is an archetype. It further substantiates the occurrence of this fashion trend at this place and time. It also fits the C-14, while much more happened later.
Other versions of Absalom, (1400-1450)
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What about the hat?
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - MichelleL11 - 13-12-2022
I can slightly expand a crossbow Sagittarius presented by Darren previously -- there are actually two Sagittarius images in this manuscript (Cod. Guelf. 1182 Helmst.), both of which could be cross-bow. The first is associated with the standard calendar Sagittarius page (f.187v, see first image below) whereas the second is associated with a Zodiac man (translated to be a "bloodletting" man, f. 188v, see second image below). It is possible that this second image is actually a long bow.
I'm also attaching the full Bloodletting man here, which I find interesting for its combination of the "Zodiac Man" presentation with rondel:
This manuscript is a combination handwritten and block book composite, with this portion being the block book part -- and is dated to 1457. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is a link to the first page of this section of the manuscript. It is located in the Henry August Library in Wolfenbüttel, Germany.
Finally, I'll note that there is a "Vovelle Calendar" (f. 188r) that divides the calendar up into 30 day increments and a single sign is associated with each month (complete with four dragons) that provides further support of the misunderstood belief of this Zodiac/calendar arrangement at the time, which had been discussed in another thread.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - R. Sale - 15-12-2022
What is unique and rare about VMs Sagittarius? What is rare is the human crossbowman. What is unique is the hat. The hat is an exaggeration. The hat is a chaperon. And the chaperon is white.
Having the right words, knowing the correct terminology is an important aspect of this investigation. And in Sagittarius, it is obvious. The only thing needed is to have the proper name for it. In other words: le chaperon blanc.
There are a number of references in Google Books, but the French ones are beyond me. The available parts of an article by Lia B. Ross in Urban Space in the Middle Ages and the Early Modern Age provide some interesting additional details, including the report that a white chaperon was worn by Jean, Duke of Berry (d. 1416).
VMs Sagittarius is another example of the extent of the grasp that the VMs artist has on events and things (books) that are relevant to Paris in the early 1400s. This is also another example of artistic sophistication / trickery through the combination of disparate images. In this case the hat is most unusual. The hat has its own dimension. In VMs Virgo it is the combination of standard Virgo with the Virgin Mary standing on a crescent moon. In the cosmos, the combination of Oresme and Shirakatsi. In the VMs mermaid, the combination of Lauber's generic mermaid with the Valois Melusine. In the VMs critter, the combination of the Golden Fleece with a specific version of an Agnus Dei illustration.
Why don't VMs representations more clearly correspond to historical images? Because they are combinations that are intended to be dissonant. They are made not to fit in standard categories because they include the secondary element intentionally inserted by the artist to create ambiguity and to disguise interpretations. The historical implications and interpretations of "le chaperon blanc" speak for themselves.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 16-12-2022
(15-12-2022, 09:15 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What is unique is the hat. The hat is an exaggeration. The hat is a chaperon. And the chaperon is white.
It is unique among the crossbow Sagittarii, but is it unique for Sagittarius in general?
About the type of headgear, we seem to have a specific type of chaperon. The most typical (Burgundian-Netherlandish style) chaperon has at least three parts: a padded circular "rondel" which sits around the head, a long tail (cornette) which was sometimes used like a scarf, and the "patte" or "cockscomb", which also hangs down from the hat. In the image below, the tail hangs on the right and the "patte" on the left:
![[Image: 599px-Jan_van_Eyck_-_Man_in_a_Blue_Cap_%...1211201652]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/Jan_van_Eyck_-_Man_in_a_Blue_Cap_%28c.1430%29.jpg/599px-Jan_van_Eyck_-_Man_in_a_Blue_Cap_%28c.1430%29.jpg?20161211201652)
In the VM archer, the tail (cornette) is absent and the patte is long and simple. Now here is an interesting bit from the Wiki:
Quote:Especially in Italy, the cornette was sometimes dispensed with, leaving just an un-flared tubular patte fixed to the bourrelet all round and hanging down to one side of the head. Reed (see refs) calls these sack hats.
This means that the headgear of the VM archer is not only a specific subtype of chaperon (or even a different type of headgear altogether, depending on the modern classification), but it is also clearly distinct from the Burgundian style. I am not the first one to point this out, but a reminder seemed in place because we're cutting corners.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - nablator - 16-12-2022
Interesting: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Quote:As a mark of recognition, a sign depicting the Virgin accompanied by the legend "Agnus dei" was attached to their headgear.
...
Then, in Ghent, the tradesmen who, in 1379, had revolted against the dukes of Burgundy, wore white chaperons. This faction then spread to Paris in 1413, in a chaotic political context marked by the madness of King Charles VI and the Great Western Schism.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - R. Sale - 16-12-2022
Admittedly, I don't yet have the benefit of all prior investigations, so contributions are most welcome.
There still seems to be a great deal of visual, if not stylistic, differences between the various depictions of the chaperon. Sometimes it's described simply as a 'hood'. Still looking for a *white* one.
The 'sack hat' description sounds a lot like the VMs depiction. Imagine transposing the hat in post #165 with the VMs. So, where and when were there sack hats in Italy? Was there any traditional or political reason that the Italian 'sack hats' were made in *white*?
Which element might be more familiar in a medieval context: Italian fashion or the Cabochien revolt? What is the primary factor for the VMs archer's hat: style or color? Is it really necessary, from a VMs perspective, to separate them??? The VMs artist is perfectly capable of mixed metaphors and all kinds of tricks. I've got a list of them.
Not meaning to cut corners, just opening a can of 'terms' to see what topics might crawl out.
PS: @nablator
Yes, the white chaperon was adopted by the Cabochien faction in their brief revolt. And the Cabochiens were then aligned with John the Fearless / Jean sans Peur, Duke of Burgundy (d.1419). They were defeated and expelled from Paris, but the Burgundians came back with the English occupation of Paris after 1420.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Aga Tentakulus - 16-12-2022
In the beginning there was Googel.
Sorry, spelling mistake "Gugel
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The end of the zip became longer and longer and you started to wrap it.
That's how the Chaperon Rafael came into being. The simple one.
From this, the luxury chaperone of the nobility was born.
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Originally from Germany, it spread through France and Italy. In Italy it is called "Cappuccio".
Gugel, Chaperon Rafael, Noble Chaperon. Open chaperon, Cappucci.
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RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Aga Tentakulus - 17-12-2022
I add this comparison because this drawing (Freske Runkelstein) is specifically mentioned on the French Wiki page.
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RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - R. Sale - 17-12-2022
I'm still somewhat at odd with things here. The VMs hat clearly has no covering around the neck or on the shoulders. It's not something that you pull over your head and your face pops out - like some of the examples. The VMs also clearly has a brim that extends well away from the forehead, unlike the various, close-fitting capes.
Still no image of a white chaperon, though written references clearly attest.
And now we're back at Runkelstein - the sleeves look pretty good.