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+--- Thread: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? (/thread-2209.html)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Mark Knowles - 28-11-2022
(28-11-2022, 03:38 PM)Juan_Sali Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Scorpio
Both animals have 4 for legs and a long tail thougn the left image's legs are shorter or the animal is crouched.
The left image has lines and points drawn in its back, the VMS seems to have some points too and maybe some lines but the resolution
on the image is low and I cant see the details.
What is the green animal meant to be?
A Scorpion?
Or something else?
I doesn't look much like a scorpion, but maybe that was just how they represented it at the time.
I have seen other examples of this green creature.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Juan_Sali - 28-11-2022
(28-11-2022, 04:03 PM)Mark Knowles Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Scorpio is represented in different ways, not only with a scorpion, see previous posts on this thread:Quote:ScorpioWhat is the green animal meant to be?
Both animals have 4 for legs and a long tail thougn the left image's legs are shorter or the animal is crouched.
The left image has lines and points drawn in its back, the VMS seems to have some points too and maybe some lines but the resolution
on the image is low and I cant see the details.
A Scorpion?
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Scorpio is represented in 2 different ways in the same drawing:
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RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Juan_Sali - 01-12-2022
More samples of libra and taurus similar to the VMS.
They are conected by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
In the early 1400s, the Boucicaut Master was the leading master of manuscript illumination in Paris and one of the most influential artists working in the International style in northern Europe. The Boucicaut Master appears to have supervised a talented team of artists who produced manuscripts commissioned by the king of France, high-ranking aristocrats, and the wealthy bourgeoisie. He probably also made works sold on the open market. He produced illuminations of exceptional naturalism that capture the elegance and refinement of court taste. The name Boucicaut derives from the identification of his hand in a book of hours made for the Maréchal de Boucicaut, Jean le Meingre II, the marshal of France.
The top-left taurus and libra are from a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., made by Master of the Brussels Initials:
Cosimo de' Migliorati, bishop of Bologna and a cardinal, commissioned this luxuriously decorated missal. It was made sometime between 1389 and 1404, the year in which he was elevated to the papacy as Innocent VII. The Master of the Brussels Initials after working in Bolognia moved to the Ile-de-France.
The style of the horns of the taurus is similar to the VMS.
The scales are also very close to the VMS, in special the detail over the bar.
The top-middle taurs an libra are from a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., made by Boucicaut Master (French, active about 1390 - 1430), and Workshop of the Rohan Master (French, active about 1410 - 1440)
The top-right tarurs and libra are from a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., made by a Follower of the Boucicaut Master (French, active about 1390 - 1430), and a Follower of the Egerton Master (French / Netherlandish, active about 1405 - 1420).
The clothes of the man that holds the scales have the same style than the man that holds the crossbow in the VMS. This Book of Hours has many samples of the fashion of that time.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Juan_Sali - 03-12-2022
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Italy, perhaps in Apulia(south Italy), early 15th century
A "zodiac-horse", the sign of libra and the horns of taurus are in the VMS style.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Juan_Sali - 05-12-2022
The 2 top-left images, sagittaus and gemini are from a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
In another thread it was said that sagittarius with croosbow is only known from one family of manuscripts, all after 1400 ca and from German-speaking regions. The one I have posted corresponds to that family?
Gemini are dressed though I cant say if their clothes are similar to the VMS or not. Their position is also different.
The 3 top-right images, aries-gemini-sagittarius are from a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Aries horns are short, like the VMS.
Gemini: the woman is taller than the man, and the positions of the bodies and the arms are also similar to the VMS.
Sagittaus is clothed, not uncommon.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - MichelleL11 - 06-12-2022
(05-12-2022, 08:15 PM)Juan_Sali Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The 2 top-left images, sagittaus and gemini are from a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
In another thread it was said that sagittarius with croosbow is only known from one family of manuscripts, all after 1400 ca and from German-speaking regions. The one I have posted corresponds to that family?
I knew those manuscript illustrations looked familiar. See discussion in 2020 linked below where I talk about where I saw these (I was not the first Voynich researcher to find these examples - I believe that was Ellie Velinska who is no longer researching the VMS).
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Yes, I believe this MS's Sagittarius follows that pattern. It is about 1400, Bavaria is a German-speaking region (albeit a dialect), so I think this manscript is part of that tradition --> see discussion by JK Peterson for the basis of the statement:
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One way you can double check for prior discussions is to use the shelf mark for the manuscript (and in general, it can be helpful to others to provide this in your own postings). The shelf mark for this manscript is Cod. Pal. Germ. 148 which stands for Codices Palatini germanici. Pal. Germ. 148 can also be used. Sometimes this is abbreviated CPG. In all cases, you therefore know that the language of the manuscript is German because of the germanici part. If it was in Latin, it would be Cod. Pal. Lat.
Here is a link to the story behind manuscripts that have Cod. Pal. shelf marks -- it's pretty interesting and involves the 30 Years War:
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (a number of the Latin manuscripts from this library are physcially present in the Vatican library and only a digital manuscript is in Heidelberg, see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Those manuscripts have Vat. Pal. Lat. (or BAV (Bibiloteca Apostolica Vaticana) Pal. Lat.) shelf marks.
The system is far, far from consistent but it can give you clues . . .
You do this enough you start recognizing the holding library by their shelf mark patterns . . . in this case, you know that Cod. Pal. Germ. shelf marked MS are most likely in the University of Heidelberg library because the Vatican returned a majority of the German ones from the Biblioteca Palatina to Heidelberg in the 1800s.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - MarcoP - 06-12-2022
Following Michelle's hint, I searched for references to the zodiac in Cod Pal Germ 148. It's a pity that the wayback machine doesn't have full text search yet. The earliest I could find is indeed that Ellie Velinska pointed out the Pal Germ 148 Gemini and crossbow Sagittarius in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
EDIT: about the "family" of German crossbow-Sagittarii, this is a reasonable hypothesis, given the evidence that has been collected so far. Since all the examples are from the German-speaking part of Europe, and most examples date to the 15th century, it seems likely that they are somehow related. The alternative is the parallel independent invention of the same motif in roughly the same area and the same time: this cannot be ruled out in principle, but personally I find it less convincing.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - R. Sale - 07-12-2022
The crossbow in Sagittarius appears to be a topic of fairly high specificity, and it would be interesting to bring together a summation of current information. A list of relevant references - like the 'sleeves' investigation. Perhaps newer examples can be added to previous investigations.
As to the origins of the phenomenon, as above, current data leans Germanic. As to the extent of potential influence, that remains to be seen. Surely there were Germanic influences in Paris when Isabeau of Bavaria was Queen of France (d. 1435). Germanic artistic influences might cover an area from Paris to Prague to Vienna and Switzerland etc.
Furthermore, if the collation of various artistic investigations, particularly those that are synchronous with the parchment C-14 results, can be put together with those that are historically and culturally relevant, it will be apparent that the VMs artist was influenced by a growing number of independent sources and <apparently> lived during their confluence.
A lot of crossbows here, a few with fair detail, but not one in Sagittarius.
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RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - MarcoP - 07-12-2022
(07-12-2022, 09:02 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The crossbow in Sagittarius appears to be a topic of fairly high specificity, and it would be interesting to bring together a summation of current information. A list of relevant references - like the 'sleeves' investigation.
Possibly the google docs linked in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might be a useful starting point. I am sorry that google somehow messes up the format: it might look better if you download it.
Yesterday I edited the doc to add Ellie's reference to the Pal Germ manuscript. I'll be happy to add any other pre-1500 crossbow Sagittarii that I might have missed.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Juan_Sali - 08-12-2022
(16-12-2017, 08:49 AM)Paris Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I cant say if it is a leopard or it seems a leopartd because of lack of skill of the artist. I like the heraldry idea.(11-12-2017, 04:07 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.a blue lionI agree with the color but not for the animal.
I understand that the astrolgical sign for august is a lion or a lioness but this animal doesn't look like to a lion for me.
It seems to be more a leopard.
The first letters of leopard are LEO (like the astronomical sign).
Leopard is symbol of Normandy (french region).
This images are from a Book of Hours. Use of Rouen. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., 16th century, first quarter
Place of Origin: France, Normandy. It is a bit outdate but it is interesting.
Aries is very close to the VMS.
Leo is quite similar except for the head and the hair, the tongue is not out of the mouth.
In heraldry there are a different names for the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. The VMS Leo would be a "passant guardant" or "Léopard".
See also in the former wikipedia entry Lions vs. leopards.
The You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. includes some coats of arms with lions, within the "passant guardant" cathegory are Normandy, Aquitaine, Suavia(Schwaben), England....
There are many samples of Leo depicted in same way as heraldry, in different positions, the tongue out of the mouth and the tail up are always needed.
The left taken from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., fol. 235r: Astronomical Composite Manuscript 1435-1444.
The right taken from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., fol. 9r: Historienbibel des Evert van Soudenbalch 1400-1499.