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+--- Thread: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? (/thread-2209.html)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 06-11-2020
The browsing goat is one of two main options. I prefer the other, which is that the animal is shown against a tree in the background. See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - DONJCH - 06-11-2020
The thing that makes this a bit more convincing is the bumps or mountains under the goat.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - R. Sale - 06-11-2020
Zodiac signs in heraldry, an interesting suggestion. Should we also be looking for scorpions, bulls, lions and virgins, also?
As far as the insignia itself, there are three different pictorial representations (#2 = #3). And there are two different descriptions or blazons (#1 and #2/#3).
It's interesting to run these old heraldic descriptions through Google Translate and see what comes out.
#1 Blazon:
Portent d'argent à un pommier sauvage et un bouquetin de sâble dressé contre les branches, sur trois montagnettes de sinople au pied de l'escu.
#1 Google:
Carry Argent to a wild apple tree and an ibex of sable raised against the branches, on three montagnettes Vert at the foot of the escu.
#2/#3 Blazon:
Armoiries : d'argent à un bélier de sable dressé en pied contre un arbre de sinople, fûté du second, le tout soutenu de trois coupeaux de sinople.
#2/#3 Google:
Coat of arms: Argent to a ram Sable drawn up against a tree Vert, barrel of the second, the whole supported by three cups Vert.
For those who trust Google Translation completely, guess again. Even with the combined information, it takes further input to fully and simply explain.
It is a "coat of arms", a blazon. Argent is silver (white). The field (background) is silver (white). The animal is an ibex or ram. The animal is sable (black). It is drawn up against a tree / raised up against the branches of a wild apple tree. The tree is vert (green). "Barrel of the second" means the tree trunk is of the second (color) - which is black. And "[font=Arial, sans-serif]the whole supported by three cups Vert" or "[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]on three montagnettes Vert at the foot of the escu." So they're either on 'cups' or 'montagnettes', which are green. I'm going with hills at the bottom of the escutcheon.[/font][/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]In the #2/#3 version of the insignia, note the parallel, diagonal, hatching lines on the tree and on the hills. This is the standard Petra Sancta pattern to denote green. White is white (silver = argent) and black is back (sable). It's as simple as that. Just look at all the potential problems in the attempted translations. [/font][/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The third variation (image #4) has significant differences: a blue field and three stars in chief.[/font][/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Interesting as this may be - or not, what is the proposed relevance to the VMs? The heraldic depictions consistently show a ram or ibex standing on its back legs - the VMs examples do not fit that criterion. Standing on the back legs fairly clearly indicates browsing. Muzzle in the tree versus tree in the background could be ambiguous. Bumps on the ground versus *three hills* does not match very well.[/font][/font]
[font=Arial, sans-serif][font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I think that the path of investigation more relevant to the VMs would be the 13 other examples of browsing 'goats' in versions of Aries in a zodiac that JKP mentioned. What more can be said regarding the provenance of these sources, particularly those of the 15th century? Perhaps there are items here that have provenance which might cross paths with the provenance of things in other investigations.[/font][/font]
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 06-11-2020
Since Paris pointed out the Gemini pose, I had a closer look at the Zodiac in the Notre Dame West rose window, and I think some items further cement the connection between the VM Zodiac images and earlier French ones.
- Its Aries has a tree placed in precisely the correct positon to cause the nibbling/background confusion. And there is uneven terrain.
- Its Cancer has half of the legs on the tail. Furthermore it has little "forward" claws, while other examples of lobsters with legs on the tail tend to have "flexing" claws. And it has the little claws on the legs as well.
By themselves, these parallels would not be massively illuminating, but together with the Gemini pose, a lot of rare features are adding up.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - R. Sale - 07-11-2020
Are these the windows dated c. 1250s or something else? Anyone in Paris could have seen those windows and be influenced by the representations they present. That's not a bad thing. The Oresme text, BNF Fr. 565, is tied to Paris. The de Metz text, Harley 334, is tied to Paris. There have been a number of indicators that imply that the creator(s) of the VMs had some familiarity with objects and events in Paris and Dijon. And Dijon ties to Paris, through the Valois ancestry and Melusine, through the works of Christine de Pisan in the KBR library, and through the Anglo-Burgundian occupation of Paris (1420-1435). And the rest is history.
Like the VMs cosmos, investigation has been clouded by unfamiliarity and ambiguity, both innate and intentional. Enough information was provided to follow a speculative trail, but insufficient, too ambiguous, to demonstrate a clearly purposeful creation. None of the individual comparisons can stand on its own, when they are taken separately. However, when taken together, like the poles that form the framework of a teepee, each one supports and is supported by the others. The gathering of additional material moves closer to a critical mass - perhaps, some day.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 07-11-2020
As Marco pointed out, these belong to the same original series as the Gemini, so authentic 13th century. The more recent ones are Bull and Capricorn.
A remaining challenge is to better understand the the way Zodiac roundels in manuscript traditions derived from these very public examples, and where exactly the VM fits in.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 08-11-2020
I've blogged about the sculptural/mosaic/window influences, but not extensively (the blogs were already long).
I can't remember the details because it was several years ago, but I think I figured out that the sculptural and window zodiac designs tend to precede the manuscript art with the same themes by about 2 or 3 centuries.
As for the connection between the VMS thematic style and the style that originated in northeast France/Flanders/Anglo-Norman area, I don't think there's any doubt about that. I thought I had documented it well enough to convince even the most skeptical that even if the VMS illustrator saw a specific examplar in Italy, Bavaria, or Alsace, the themes migrated there from northeastern France. The only thing I wasn't able to document for certain was whether it went east and south, or south and east, on one very specific part of the migration route. There seems to be equal evidence for either possibility.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 08-11-2020
I know JKP, but general acceptance is a rare thing in Voynich studies, and it never hurts to hammer the same nail by adding more evidence.
There is also something unusual about the Notre Dame series. Stylistically, they are quite different from the VM (as we could expect from works that are centuries apart) but it combines a number of extremely rare VM features. Gemini in crossed arms pose; lobster with (some) legs on tail, unbent front claws, little claws on legs; Aries (not Capricorn) with tree in pseudo-nibbling position... I don't recall a manuscript Zodiac that combines these rare elements.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 08-11-2020
(08-11-2020, 10:56 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I know JKP, but general acceptance is a rare thing in Voynich studies, and it never hurts to hammer the same nail by adding more evidence.
...
Yes, I agree.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Juan_Sali - 28-11-2022
There are some similitudes between some signs of this You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (dated 1301-1400) and some VMS signs.
Libra
The hand in the left image holds a mechanism similar tothat of the VMS on the right. The plates are also united with 3 ropes or chains.
Taurus
The horns have a similar shape.
Scorpio
Both animals have 4 for legs and a long tail thougn the left image's legs are shorter or the animal is crouched.
The left image has lines and points drawn in its back, the VMS seems to have some points too and maybe some lines but the resolution
on the image is low and I cant see the details.