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+--- Thread: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? (/thread-2209.html)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Gioynich - 30-09-2020
JKP, if you could share your full data set on the zodiacs (I know it was a lot of work, so I perfectly understand if you don't want to), I would be interested in building a machine learning classifier that, given some input features (e.g. is virgo male? is sagittarius human? etc.) predicts the most likely location and time period for the VM.
If you don't want to share all the images and you already have features for each zodiac you collected (including time and location), that would also work.
Let me know what you think
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 01-10-2020
(30-09-2020, 07:50 PM)Gioynich Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP, if you could share your full data set on the zodiacs (I know it was a lot of work, so I perfectly understand if you don't want to), I would be interested in building a machine learning classifier that, given some input features (e.g. is virgo male? is sagittarius human? etc.) predicts the most likely location and time period for the VM.
If you don't want to share all the images and you already have features for each zodiac you collected (including time and location), that would also work.
Let me know what you think
Yes, it was a lot of work. It took me about 8 or 9 years to find that many. Since 2017, I've only found a few new ones. The more you have, the harder it is to find more.
I didn't use the Warburg Institution collection (in fact I started the collection years before I knew about it and when they didn't have that much data), and I didn't find very many through Google Images either. I found 99% of them by going through manuscripts.
We already know the answer to the time period. It's expressed in the fashions, the style of the faces, and the thematic content. My blogs and Koen's blogs looked into that in some detail. Some of the maps I posted in those blogs include dates.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Paris - 26-10-2020
I think I found an image similar to the one of Gemini.
Similar but not identical.
It's a stained glass window of the Notre-Dame Cathedral of Paris (first half of the thirteenth century) where the twelve signs of the zodiac are represented.
One of these windows represents the sign of Gemini :
[font=Arial, sans-serif]
The image of the manuscript is as follows:
The similarities are:
Both people are dressed
These two people are holding hands
Their arms are crossed
They have laced shoes
The differences are:
Two persons of opposite sex in the manuscript. They are same sex on the stained glass window.
The clothes are green and blue in the manuscript. Their clothes are red and green on the stained glass window[/font]
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 26-10-2020
Very nice, Paris. You deserve your name
Yet another indication that the VM Zodiac symbols descend from earlier French examples (whatever their immediate example may have been).
What would they be doing?
And are we certain that they are both male? Clothing for men and women could be identical before the 15th century. It's hard to see for certain, but if the green one is belted higher, this would be the woman.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 27-10-2020
I thought I had found some similar stained glass themes in the Soissons Cathedral and mentioned it in my You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., and a more general one on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but some investigation of stained glass revealed that many cathedrals had their glass replaced, sometimes numerous times, and in some cases it's difficult to determine how closely the new designs copied the old. In some cases only some of the glass was replaced.
Sometimes there are records of the replacements, but the possible differences in the designs were not always recorded.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 27-10-2020
The drawing style, dress, faces and even the trees in the background all look period appropriate. So even if they were not original, then I'd say the design certainly is.
If this is a man and a woman, then the pose is what I'd expect of a marriage or betrothal contract, whereby they hold hands while the man offers an object to the woman.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - MarcoP - 27-10-2020
(27-10-2020, 11:49 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The drawing style, dress, faces and even the trees in the background all look period appropriate. So even if they were not original, then I'd say the design certainly is.
If this is a man and a woman, then the pose is what I'd expect of a marriage or betrothal contract, whereby they hold hands while the man offers an object to the woman.
Hi Koen,
this French web page confirms what you say:
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Of the zodiac signs, only Taurus and Capricorn were replaced in the XVI Century.
The two figures appear to be males: the women in Virgo and Libra have longer dresses that cover their feet.
The Gemini illustration is interpreted as the two men exchanging two objects with both hands, but (like you) I only see an exchange in the upper hands. It could be a leaf or a small plant, as the French web page says.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 27-10-2020
Interesting. It might still be some kind of trade then, whether they exchange two objects or shake hands to seal the deal.
I wonder whether Zodiac medallions in manuscripts got their shape because of their connection to these kinds of rosette windows. It's certainly possible given the much greater public prominence of the latter.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Paris - 06-11-2020
I would like to talk about the drawings representing aries
There are several families in Switzerland who have a aries or ibexes in their coat of arms.
I found only one Swiss family with coats of arms similar to the drawings of the aries in the Voynich manuscript.
This is the MELLET family.
This family is mainly located in Vevey, near Lausanne (15 kilometers).
I noted several different coats of arms of this family in different books, during the medieval period.
Book 1 :
Source : « Le baillage de Vevey et Chillon du 14ème au 17ème siècle. » by André de Joffrey. Page 42
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Transcription :
« De Mellet,
Henricus, châtelain en 1410
Possédaient des fiefs nobles aux territoires de Rennaz et Roche et un fief rural rière Blonay ; possèdent la moitié des grandes dîmes de Salvion et Ferlens.
Portent d'argent à un pommier sauvage et un bouquetin de sable dressé contre les branches, sur trois montagnettes de sinople au pied de l'écu. »
On this coat of arms, the animal drawn is an ibex (bouquetin) ; the tree is an apple tree (pommier).
Book 2 :
Source : « Dictionnaire historique & biographique de la Suisse : publié avec la recommandation de la Société générale suisse d'histoire. » by Marcel Godet. Volume 4. Page 711
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Transcription :
« II. Mellet, de : famille noble de Vevey, connue déjà au 13ème siècle
Armoiries : d'argent à un bélier de sable dressé en pied contre un arbre de sinople, fûté du second, le tout soutenu de trois coupeaux de sinople. »
On this coat of arms, the animal drawn is a aries (bélier) ; the tree is a tree
Book 3 :
Source : « Armorial historique du canton de Vaud contenant les armoiries des évêques de Lausanne...» by Louis-Alphonse de Mandrot. Page 15
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RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 06-11-2020
The browsing goat is a very common theme in manuscripts and also in zodiacs, but I think it's a good idea to explore families that use it as an emblem, as Paris has done. People tend to draw things that are familiar, even when they are copying from other sources.
I was curious about how many zodiacs include browsing goats. Here is what I found...
Out of about 700 zodiac series, with about 650 of them being complete, there were only 13 that included browsing goats. Jumping goats are more common than browsing goats.
So browsing goats are quite rare in zodiac imagery. The date range was c. 1260s for two of them, 14th century for 3 of them, and the rest are 15th century with a few in the early 16th century.
So, either the VMS goat is from a non-zodiac source, or it fits in the general time period in which browsing goats were included in zodiacs (late 13th century to early 16th century).
I see browsing goats in non-zodiac sources quite frequently. They are in a variety of manuscripts, religious, scientific, classical literature. They are sometimes in the margins nibbling on decorative foliage. They are almost always standing on their hind legs.