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+--- Thread: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? (/thread-2209.html)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Linda - 13-03-2019
The whole thing was 4 feet in diameter.
In this one i can see that what i thought i saw about the lobster is not so, had thought i saw legs on tail but they are on the body.
You can also see how the moon phases change. The one with drapes you can start to read text.
![[Image: DZJdpKlU0AEAYkF.jpg]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZJdpKlU0AEAYkF.jpg)
![[Image: p1040402.jpg]](https://terryvatrt.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/p1040402.jpg)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - bi3mw - 07-04-2019
(19-09-2018, 12:54 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....During a research I stumbled upon the original of the cancer on the top right.
In her You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. file, Lippincott groups several manuscripts under the title "Michael Scot - German mss – IVa." This group includes the Alsatian 8-legs crayfish discussed by Koen (Lippincott labels the Salzburg ms "Studienbibl. 2 G 8/13" instead of "Sammelhandschrift M II 180"): that crayfish also belongs to the Michael Scot tradition.
...
![[Image: cancer01.png]](http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/mwille2/VMS/cancer01.png)
Astrological-astronomical collection: Ms. germ. Fol. 244, [around 1445], You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The other zodiac signs are also interesting.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Linda - 05-01-2020
![[Image: kalender-zodiac1.jpg]](https://www.renaissanceastrology.com/images/kalender-zodiac1.jpg)
I came across this one, which features some resemblances to the vms zodiac diagrams.
It is from Cecco d'Ascoli's Necromantic Commentary on the Sphere of Sacrobosco.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - MarcoP - 06-01-2020
(05-01-2020, 08:08 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I came across this one, which features some resemblances to the vms zodiac diagrams.
It is from Cecco d'Ascoli's Necromantic Commentary on the Sphere of Sacrobosco.
Hi Linda,
while the image you linked is from a web page about Cecco d'Ascoli's Commentary, I don't think it is related with that text.
The engraving appears to be from the 1487 German book discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ("Iatromathematische Hausbuch" at the Bayerische Staatsbibliothek in Munich).
EDIT: link to scans You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I can't read the German, but it apparently includes You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Linda - 07-01-2020
Thanks, Marco, i had assumed it was a later copy since it was German but did not find more about it. The divination section makes me see aiin's everywhere
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - aStobbart - 20-06-2020
(05-01-2020, 08:08 PM)Linda Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I came across this one, which features some resemblances to the vms zodiac diagrams.
It is from Cecco d'Ascoli's Necromantic Commentary on the Sphere of Sacrobosco.
Hello, this is my first comment here but I had to break the silence after lurking for a while.
I also found that picture while reading about zodiac signs and how they are represented in medieval manuscripts. The fact that Libra is represented as a scale and there is no man or woman holding it intrigued me. The other signs look similar in concept, but obviously the VMS ones are less stylish compared to that german book. In my opinion there are many conceptual similarities.
I am not an expert in this area but maybe this "style" can be isolated to a specific time and region? It is a long shot but could provide a lead to the VMS orign or at least the author's background.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 20-06-2020
I have collected around 700 medieval zodiac series. About 630 of them are complete.
Approx. 200 of these illustrate Libra with no figure (and usually with no hand although some of them have what they call a "God hand").
The majority of Libra-without-figure are from France and Germany, a few from Italy, Alsace and Flanders, England, and Czech, and a few from the Middle East.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 20-06-2020
Libra isn't the best discriminator, is it?
Time can be established by looking at the clothing. This style was most common between 1400 and 1430.
Region is a bit harder. Some of the particular features originated in France, but the actual drawing style is closer to what we find in Alsace and southern Germany.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 20-06-2020
Libra by itself is not a strong discriminator. I did a significant number of combination searches to try to figure out exactly which themes or shapes or poses or colors or styles were good discriminators. It took a couple of years of experimenting and regional cross-checking. It's also why I waited until I had collected a significant number of zodiac series before running these tests. You need a big dataset to reduce the spurious results.
Some of the things I discovered...
If you combine no-figure Libra with the crayfish and 2-legged archer, then the thematic patterns become more evident.
Crayfish versus crab was a reasonably good discriminator if the crab was combined with a dragony-scorpio. This is a mostly English combination. The dragon-scorpios are different from the turtle/tarask/lizardy scorpios (which are mostly continental).
The turtle-Scorpius was also a reasonably good discriminator, even by itself. It is primarily found in areas of eastern France and western HRE that were fond of the tarasque story (St. Margaret).
Long-nosed fish were reasonably good if combined with other themes like the crayfish.
There are certain areas where the line between the fish is omitted.
The tongue and leg-tail lions do not discriminate as well as I hoped. A lot of widely-separated regions used both motifs, but they can be combined with other themes to narrow a search to some extent. I learned to be careful with these however. Both traits can be found in English, French, German, Austrian, and Middle Eastern zodiacs in various combinations... so, I use this less than others. I thought the fat-tongue might be a discriminator but what I found was that a fat tongue usually just means a less-experienced illustrator (most of the time).
The crossbowman might be less discriminating than expected. It took me a while to figure out why. Its lineage is one of the more complex in thematic terms...
The 2-legged archer versus 4-legged archer (centaur) seems to be a more accurate discriminator when used with combination searches. Gradually I discovered that a crossbowman is an emblem in some places. So... if you were selecting a 2-legged archer rather than a traditional centaur AND if you were from a region where the crossbow is an emblem, as an illustrator you might choose the crossbow over the other styles of bows. The crossbow is not always a discriminator by itself. Of course, some illustrators simply copied (there is a group with crossbows which are obviously related, but not all of them), which makes it harder to see which one it is (emblem or direct copy), so I try to only evaluate the archer in combination searches, rather than by itself.
Virgo that sits is a partial discriminator.
Virgo that is male and is standing, and especially if it has wings, is a reasonably good discriminator of traditional zodiacs. When you find this kind of Virgo, then Sagittarius is usually a centaur, Cancer is usually a Crab, Capricorn is usually a seagoat.
Nude male Gemini with a shield is a fairly good discriminator.
Male combined with female Gemini, especially when used in combination searches with a crayfish and no-figure Libra, is a revealing combination as it has some specific regional characteristics that can be plotted over time to show the migration of this thematic group.
There are other combinations that are revealing (there are examples on my blog), but that gives an idea of some of the ones that help tease out some of the different thematic lines.
One of the things I noticed is that illustrators frequently substituted colors, or mirrored the direction of a particular figure, even if most of the rest was a direct copy. Sometimes they changed the shape that was enclosing the figure (although this was often retained).
I have much more information on this topic, but the post is long, so I'll leave it there for now.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - MarcoP - 20-06-2020
(20-06-2020, 01:05 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Virgo that is male and is standing, and especially if it has wings, is a reasonably good discriminator of traditional zodiacs.
Virgo was represented as a woman. As discussed by Emilie Savage-Smith in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. p.172, in classical times, the Virgo constellation (from which the zodiac sign derives) was usually winged and holding the scales (Libra); Aratus identified her with Dike (the goddess of Justice). She was also associated with Demeter because of the ear of wheat.
While Savage-Smith focusses on classical and Islamic iconography, a brief but accurate discussion of Medieval European zodiac images can be read in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by Colum Hourihane.
Of course, medieval zodiacs went through all types of corruptions and male Virgos could be among them.