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+--- Thread: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? (/thread-2209.html)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - ReneZ - 21-09-2018
What Marco writes coincides exactly with my opinion:
Quote:Voynich researchers tend to easily jump to strong conclusions on the basis of insufficient evidence. "This root looks like a figure on a Babylonian seal, hence the manuscript clearly incorporates Mesopotamian sources". "These two EVA labels look like Finnish words, hence Voynichese must be Finnish". "These plants look more like exotic plants than European plants, hence the manuscript indisputably represents American (or African) plants".
But visual similarity (even when it is not totally illusory) can be due to several causes, including coincidence. People make errors like these in good faith, because of wishful thinking and the desire to find answers to the numberless questions we face. But it is better to be patient, trying to separate what can be objectively convincing from what could be coincidence.
Large constructions are built on a foundation of only one or two stones, so the priority should be on extending the foundation. This is essentially what I wrote in my first response to JKP's recent blog entry about the long-necked Taurus. (Edit: on re-reading I should emphasise that this was not meant as a criticism, but as a constructive suggestion, because JKP is a perfect example of someone working exactly along the principle of collecting as much as possible information before creating hypotheses).
In 2009, I was aware of exactly one manuscript illustration of a sagittarius shown as a human with a crossbow. Now we are all aware of dozens, and picking any single one would give rise to many different hypotheses about the possible or likely origin of the Voynich MS.
The late 15th century woodcut of the couple that looks like the Voynich gemini is a good example. These woodcuts are most usually copied from manuscripts, and I have already seen statements that the "De amore libri tres" was very popular in the middle ages. There must still be numerous older copies of it.
This is equally likely true for the cancer illustration. In particular the 'legs at the tail' part was not seen before a couple of weeks ago. Then there was one, and now there are a handful. First it was believed to create a strong link to the Lauber workshop (which I still doubt), and now there is a suggestion for a connection between Prague and the Lauber workshop.
Of course, in building up all these hypotheses, not much harm is done, as long as one is aware, and as long as one is prepared to drop a hypothesis when more evidence becomes available. This last thing is not easy, and what happens frequently (and is only natural) is to highlight the things that fit and to blend out the things that don't fit.
But of course one of the charms of this hobby is doing all these things.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 21-09-2018
It can be extremely challenging to figure out which parts are coincidentally similar.
I've done numerous combination-searches of the zodiacs (and need to do many more), trying to flush out which details were individualized by the artist and which were copied. Of course, there is no perfect formula for this, some illustrators individualize more than others, but coming at it from different perspectives might add a few jigsaw pieces.
What I learned is that some things show up everywhere (like leg-tail tongue lions). There are zillions of them, if you count non-zodiac drawings, so using these details as search functions when analyzing the zodiacs is very speculative.
I also learned that some things are quite rare, like laces on Gemini boots.
Hooves that look like paws are uncommon, and back legs with the joints facing the wrong direction (as in the VMS) are very uncommon. I have almost no examples, after years of searching. Even illustrators with very limited skills seem to get this detail right (or, at least, more right than the VMS). It's a distinctive feature of the VMS drawing style, but was it learned from copying or is it a quirk of perception?
In general, the VMS illustrator has difficulty visualizing objects in three dimensions but that wouldn't account for everything, like the rounded hooves and weird noses (at least one, and possibly two of which may have been drawn by someone else). It also doesn't explain why so many of the critters and figures have smiley faces in places where one might expect another expression. There are exceptions, they're not all smiling, but the RELATIVE lack of conflict, of weapons, of grimacing faces is noticeable compared to many manuscripts on the same subjects.
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I still don't have a strong feeling about where the illustrator harvested the subject matter, I still suspect it was from a variety of sources, but the THEMES in the VMS (by this I mean the motifs within each subject area) are frequently found in northern Italy (especially Lombardy and close to the Veneto), Bavaria/Tyrol/Bohemia, Schwabia/Alsatia, Paris, and northeastern France.
When I find English manuscripts with commonalities with the VMS, there is often some doubt about its origin (was it created in England? or in France/Normandy/Flanders?) OR, it is an early exemplar, brought home in the crusades, that filtered out into the continent rather than the other way around So there aren't as many pushpins in my imaginary map of England as other places. and there aren't as many in Spain either, except in the areas close to Provençe, and even this is sparse compared to the other locations.
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But (and there is always a "but" with the VMS) this might not even mean anything because the VMS is not entirely the same as any of them, which means it could still be slightly off-the-grid origin (Poland? Silesia? Hungary? Dalmatia? Macedonia? Finland? northern Spain/southern France?). Georgia seems less likely (I've looked hard for connections to Georgia, Turkey, Greece, and Iran without hitting a bingo). Greco-Roman themes filtered naturally into medieval art and literature, so it's difficult to know if there are any direct links. A number of Greek and Georgian scholars studied in Germany, Lombardy, and Paris, so I can't rule them out entirely.
The VMS doesn't feel culturally homogenous to me. If it turns out it is, I will be surprised. My gut feeling is that whoever masterminded it may have come from one place and studied (or created the VMS) in another.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - nablator - 21-09-2018
A few interesting parallels in zodiac imagery, not mentioned earlier it seems:
Heidelberger Schicksalsbuch - Cod. Pal. germ. 832, Regensburg, after 1491
f. 93r
Taurus with long neck, front leg up, lyre-shaped horns.
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Losbücher - BSB Cgm 312, Schwaben, 1450 - 1473
f. 93r (also!)
Leo (mane-less head, tongue out, leg up, tail up), Taurus (not as close to the VMS as the above), Aries (leg up), Cancer (red lobster/crayfish, legs too low)
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Kalender und Praktika, schwäbisch - BSB Cgm 28, middle of 15th century
f. 17v
Sagittarius (human holding crossbow)
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RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 21-09-2018
I have the first two in my files. I didn't include Taurus because of the late date, and because I had other examples that were similar.
The lion has been posted by a couple of people. I don't know if I would call it maneless. The chest is pretty bushy even if the head-hair is sparse. They're claiming it's early 15th century but I don't know... that kind of cross-hatching on the legs is hard to find prior to the 1460s, I have been able to find a few, but they're not easy to find.
The crossbow is a good one, lots of detail for a small drawing, and Cancer is a crayfish. I wonder when they digitized it because I can't find it in my files and I went through the Cgm manuscripts one-by-one many times.
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Edit [addition]: I see now why the dates for Cgm 28 are all over the place. The very first part is old handwriting. Then it changes to later script. It doesn't look like it was all created at the same time.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 21-09-2018
There's a sequence of animals in that MS that looks somewhat familiar. I get why the December work of the month (kill a bull) is followed by ram, bull etc. But what's with the Capricorn (goat!) before bull?
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 21-09-2018
It's a new section.
The Calendar section ends with Capricorn and then a new section starts with Aries (the one in between is a labor-slaughter the bull) and then Taurus, Gemini, etc.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Koen G - 27-11-2018
The fact that the lobster has four main lobes at the end of the tail might be called a rare trait. I have only found it in the Scotus tradition and MSS which somehow incorporate Scotus (stellar tables).
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - Linda - 13-03-2019
Cant see it well enough but it seems to hold several similarities as far as i can see.
San Zeno Astrolabe, Verona 1455.
![[Image: astrolabe_1050x700.jpg]](https://daily.jstor.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/astrolabe_1050x700.jpg)
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 13-03-2019
Yes, it is similar. Human Sagittarius, crayfish-Cancer, no-figure Libra. The only significant differences are the more traditional nude (male?) twins rather than an affectionate male/female Gemini, and the scorpion instead of a non-scorpion Scorpius (and the tail doesn't wind between Leo's legs).
I can't tell if Virgo is male or female, it's just too faded. A lot of the traditional zodiacs have male Virgo.
RE: What is unique or rare about the VM Zodiac signs? - -JKP- - 13-03-2019
Here's a closeup of the figures so they're a little easier to see:
![[Image: SanZenoZodiac.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/SanZenoZodiac.png)
The numbers in the surrounding calendar grid are really tiny:
![[Image: SanZenoCalendar.png]](https://voynichportal.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/SanZenoCalendar.png)