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+--- Thread: Voynich’s Viennese Agency (/thread-2167.html)
RE: Voynich’s Viennese Agency - voynichbombe - 04-11-2017
However, the "Polenclub" business makes it slightly less probable that "man" stands for "manuscript".
RE: Voynich’s Viennese Agency - Anton - 04-11-2017
I see no problems in discussing several separate matters in one and the same note, however I would consider it strange to use an abbreviation "Man" for "manuscript", and, furthermore, this without a punctualtion mark and beginning with a capital letter.
I think that this is a mistake in transcription, and the real word is not "Man", but simply "plan".
BTW, I now see how another word in question can be transcribed as "powers", however I'm still not sure what it means in the context. If any government, then, I think, the correct English word to use would be "authorities", not "powers". "Powers" would be appropriate rather for whole states such as Britain, Russia or US. But I doubt Voynich was in position to develop any international plans of that level, was he?
RE: Voynich’s Viennese Agency - Anton - 04-11-2017
Continuing the discussion of "powers", the first letter in this word looks like neither "p" elsewhere. Instead, it looks like "y" in "to which you refer".
So, if any interest still remains in this note, I would suggest to look for words beginning with "y".
RE: Voynich’s Viennese Agency - Koen G - 04-11-2017
About Powers, remember that English was likely not their first language.
There's also expressions like 'the powers that be' which refers to authorities.
That said, I agree that the word feels weird.. but if powers is the only possible transcription it could be explained in one of these ways.
RE: Voynich’s Viennese Agency - Searcher - 04-11-2017
I think, it is possible that "the Man" means a certain unnamed man (known to the interlocutors) and mentioned "source" means more usual word in this context: "lineage".
RE: Voynich’s Viennese Agency - Searcher - 04-11-2017
ReneZ wrote:
Quote:Here's a newspaper report from the same day as the letter, referring to discussions in Lemberg which involved a certain Sliwinski (I did not reproduce the diacritics correctly):
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(hope that works).
The discussion was about a "Polenklub", something that has potential to be close to Voynich's heart.
In that report Sliwinski and Lisievicz are mentioned, so I think, Sliwinski must be Hipolit Sliwinski, after all.
Stronnictwo Postępowo-Demokratyczne – polska partia polityczna istniejąca w latach 1911-1918, utworzona przez galicyjskich lewicowych polityków niepodległościowych w wyniku secesji z Polskiego Stronnictwa Demokratycznego. W czasie I wojny światowej weszło w skład Naczelnego Komitetu Narodowego. Przywódcami stronnictwa byli: Hipolit Śliwiński, Władysław Sikorski, B. Laskownicki, A. Lisiewicz.
Translated with Google translate:
Progressive Democratic-Progressive Party - Polish political party formed in 1911-1918, by Galician leftist politicians of independence as a result of secession from the Polish Democratic Party. During the First World War he [Sliwinski] was a member of the Supreme National Committee. The leaders of the party were: Hipolit Śliwiński, Władysław Sikorski, B. Laskownicki, A. Lisiewicz.
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Komisja Tymczasowych Skonfederowanych Stronnictw Niepodległościowych (KTSSN), od 30 listopada 1913 Komisja Skonfederowanych Stronnictw Niepodległościowych (KSSN) – porozumienie polskich partii politycznych, działających w Galicji, zawarte 10 listopada 1912 w Wiedniu.
RE: Voynich’s Viennese Agency - -JKP- - 04-11-2017
(04-11-2017, 02:46 PM)Searcher Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Duble-barelled surnames is not a widespread, but a quite usual thing in Slavic countries.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and Shapinski are Polish surnames.
It's not uncommon in Scandinavia, either. Sometimes both the father and mother's "family name", are passed down (with the father's family name at the end).
RE: Voynich’s Viennese Agency - Hubert Dale - 04-11-2017
Can I suggest “Mm Sliwinski + Stapinski”? I think there is a plus/ampersand before the capital S of the second name, connected by that upward diagonal stroke, and Mm would then be the plural abbreviation for M (Monsieur). So two individuals rather than a single person with a double-barrelled surname.
And Anton is quite right: it’s ‘plan’ and not ‘Man’.
RE: Voynich’s Viennese Agency - -JKP- - 04-11-2017
I think, as I mentioned upthread, that it may be Mssr (they didn't always add the "s" at the end)—plural for mister.
It now occurs to me that it may not be Slinnski/Slivinski. The "S" is different from the one he used for Slavinski. It's likely another form of S, but if it is, it's the only time he uses it. Some people wrote "d" that way if it's a capital, which means Delinuski is another possible reading and is once again a Jewish name from the Prussian area.
Mssrs Delinuski Shapinski.
I've noticed many of the descendants with these names are either merchants or in the medical profession. That seems consistent with clients and contacts Voynich probably sought out for selling and buying his rare books, professionals with a higher economic status who would have the means, and also might provide the names of collectors with old libraries with manuscripts to sell (or know where to find them).
RE: Voynich’s Viennese Agency - -JKP- - 06-11-2017
I glanced around at what was happening politically in that area in October 1912 and the politics are so wide and deep in the years preceding and following WWI, there could be any of a thousand reasons for secrecy and carefully worded letters, even by people with nothing to hide. It would be difficult to sort out whether secrecy were simply the way you did things or whether Voynich was involved in anything he didn't want to be public.
Some quick grabs... I haven't double-checked these sources, but it gives a general feeling of the place and time...
Emigration from Austria-Hungary in the thirty years leading up to 1912 is said to number almost four million people. Those who remained in Austria totaled about 6.5 million.
Italy had declared war on Turkey a year earlier, Montenegro was at war earlier in the month, and the Balkans were on the brink of war (with Turkish-ruled Ottoman forces). The Treaty of Lausanne calling for a cease to hostilities was signed October 18, 1912, but the situation continued to be hostile and uncertain. By the end of the month, Turkish forces were retreating, but still destroying bridges in Greece. In the Balkan wars, in that same month, the Greeks were fighting Turkish garrisons on the island of Lemnos. Six years after the letter was written, the Austro-Hungarian Empire collapsed. There were c. 200,000 Jews in the city in 1912. After the war, about 20,000 remained.
The Hotel Bristol, named after the English town, opened at Kärntner Ring 7, in 1892 by the Vienna State Opera. Over the centuries, it has catered to many celebrities, royalty, and high government officials. It was built a few decades after the walls to the medieval city of Vienna were taken down by Emperor Franz Joseph, allowing the city to expand, and served as headquarters for occupying American forces in WWII.