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+--- Thread: Central European origin (/thread-2158.html)
RE: Cental European origin - -JKP- - 27-12-2019
(27-12-2019, 12:20 AM)voynichbombe Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What I can say at a first shot, if you want to stay connected to the German language: The swallowtail battlements were more a decorative feature, and somehow a mark (maybe heraldry) of the Guelphs and Ghibellines (Welfen) of Baden-Würtemberg / Stuttgart region, but active in now South-Tirol and North-Italy. Back then (when) there were no such things, as outlined in another post: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
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The Ghibelline merlons were political (very political). By the 16th century they had become mostly decorative.
RE: Cental European origin - ReneZ - 27-12-2019
Many thanks to Voynichbombe for this insight.
Now I am not at all a specialist. (When I travel in Switzerland, I am usually classified as a 'Pifke' even when I am not.)
However, for me the following:
(26-12-2019, 10:03 PM)voynichbombe Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Bavarians mostly say “Goaß”, when they are referring to a goat, and “Müch”, when they are referring to milk.
seems to come fairly close.
RE: Cental European origin - ReneZ - 27-12-2019
(27-12-2019, 01:18 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Ghibelline merlons were political (very political). By the 16th century they had become mostly decorative.
It is true that they were a political statement, but only in a very restricted combination of space and time.
RE: Cental European origin - Aga Tentakulus - 27-12-2019
As I know, it started with the battlements in northern Italy around the 10th century. It was already popular in the 11th century.
The search continues. "valden".
Is this a German dialect form, or misspelled, or does it show the proximity to Italy?
The same applies to the names of the months. (If it was written by the same people).
Part shows clearly German, while the -bre ending shows Italian.
There are also zones in Northern Italy West (Aosta Valley) where German is spoken. But here it probably concerns Höchstalemanisch (Welsh dialect).
But it is certainly not where in the VM occurs.
For such regional questions I need dialect research.
RE: Cental European origin - -JKP- - 27-12-2019
I spent about 6 or 7 years gathering maps and maplike information when I was trying to figure out if the VMS "map" was meant to be a specific place.
While doing this, I paid attention to whether there were windmills, water wheels, Ghibelline merlons, domes, onion domes, footed towers, bartizans, saddleback towers, and other architectural features (that might relate to the VMS) in manuscripts, sculptures, mosaics, paintings, and other works of art (or textual notes), ones that might help identify certain times and places in medieval society.
I also paid attention to saddlebacks, domes, and Ghibelline merlons when they showed up in non-map drawings, and made a note of where the manuscript originated and who made it (if known).
As far as I can tell, the tug-of-war between Rome and the Holy Roman Empire (Vienna/Prague) was still very much alive in the 14th and early 15th centuries. The political implications of the Ghibelline merlons were not restricted to the Ghibellines and Guelphs—they represented the schisms between the two big powers. Even though this affected a lot of people, these merlons do not seem to have been especially common. A very large number of the towers and walls that have these merlons are post-medieval rebuilds, and the distinctive merlons are not included in earlier drawings.
Medieval maps and drawings are not entirely literal (and many of them are completely made up, especially those that accompany medieval travelogues), but some illustrators (usually local ones) did a reasonable job of representing a place.
This is not something that can be determined in 6 or 7 years (it would take many researchers many decades to do it), but as far as I can tell, these merlons did not spread very broadly until around the 16th century, when they had become more decorative than political. Even though it persisted for several more centuries in one form or another, the Holy Roman Empire was breaking up into "islands" by that time.
RE: Cental European origin - Aga Tentakulus - 27-12-2019
Search for pictures to compare in books.
That is a dangerous thing to do if I have to assume that the same thing has been learned in the various universities and monasteries in Europe.
For that you need books, a copy of a copy for school. In the end, author unknown.
I don't know if there is even an original about Greek science. Most of them are copies.
From Athens to Alexandria, to the Arab world, back to Bizantium and then to Rome, and to the whole world.
RE: Cental European origin - voynichbombe - 27-12-2019
To return to the plants that escaped castle gardens, I thought I would have a link to a botanical DB with a geo-coordinate search feature, but I was wrong. If someone has, please share.
Anyway, if you go the other way round, searching for a specific plant, there is this, where you can select "Alto-Adige" (as the Italians call South-Tyrol, translating to Hoch-Etsch, the river):
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I cannot find out if Castle Neuberg of M. Maultasch had a garden, but I read that there was a connected "Klause" below it, which got destroyed sometime in the 1900s. But plants are tough..
Of course it is your choice which plant you are looking for.
RE: Central European origin - Anton - 03-01-2020
fixed typo in the title of the thread
RE: Central European origin - R. Sale - 13-01-2020
Why not the country of Burgundy after 1430?
RE: Central European origin - Aga Tentakulus - 19-03-2020
A possible indication of the origin of the VM.
Why does the VM author draw a roadblock (dam).
I think he must have seen something like this before, you don't just draw something like that. Just like the steep roofs, where there is a lot of snow, there is a hint.
Strategic reservoirs of this kind are not built in the lowlands or midlands. They are only built in the mountains. In the plain and hilly terrain they can be easily avoided with little effort. Lakes, rivers and swamps are the natural obstacles.
To avoid a dam in the mountains, it can quickly become a march of 100 km. There are certainly about 100 of these in the Alps.
It is one more indication that the author comes from the Alpine region. With the swallowtail pinnacles from the southern region, and with the German text well, everyone can think about it for themselves.