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+--- Thread: Central European origin (/thread-2158.html)
RE: Cental European origin - voynichbombe - 26-12-2019
I see the problem of using german dialects for locating and/or dating as a rather difficult one. Sorry not to be more optimistic, but I had my go on “ƒo nim gaƒ mich” as “So nimm Geiß Milch” and in the end saw no way (note the use of long s, I see it as this, also not an ei but an a, ei is modern, High German orthography).
To cut the long matter short: I see no possibility whatsoever to use the words “ƒo nim gaƒ mich” for any purpose of dating and/or locating, at all. Sorry I have no better news. Please read my rather lengthy explanation only if you want some entertainment about an amateur researcher banging his head against walls
The use of long s is actually wrong in this case by todays standard. This is nothing unusual. It was used like this and that throughout the ages, location based etc, So, I asked an expert in palæography if it was possible to locate and/or date the writing by the wrong use of long s by comparison. Simply told, the answer was a covert “NO”. But maybe I should not have said that I am talking about the VMS, some experts simply run away rather fast in the opposite direction if you mention the topic. At that time I simply did not know this. Nice I received an answer, at all.
I continued with my assumption and looked up a lot of dialect data records. I located one, and only one place where the phonetic “gaƒ” would resolve to the meaning. It is a small place in the Palatinate, the Pfalz, actually a village! Pfälzische (Pälzische) dialects are known to have withstood some important lingual changes, like the High German consonant shift. Alas this is of no further importance, since the records do not reach that far back to be useful. The Pfalz is a rather small county and dialect changes a rather lot in the distance of only a few kilometers. And the comparative corpus consists of one word only.
I also tried “mich” for milk, and found one, and only one place where this is true (I also know it because I personally know speakers, but did the research to (dis)proof it), in one of the Salzburg Gaus, Pinzgau.
So there were two problems:
a) these two places are about 1200 KM apart
b) the Pälzisch dialect is not part of the bavarian family, while Pinzgauerisch is
It is as very hard to understand as Pfälzisch without some training, believe me
To generalize the problems:
1) lingual changes over time and missing historical records
This is rather obvious. Linguistics heavily relies on reconstruction and is not so much good friends with dialects.
2) orthography
This is also obvious. There was none, until rather recently. People wrote like they pleased, or heard.
3) migrational movements without record
They have been a lot, and a lot of them went unrecorded.
4) local shifts and differences
Let me give you an example: If I am not in High German mode, I speak a variant of the south-bavarian subfamily. But which one? I know of at least 8 different variants in my small county of Styria: east, south-east, south, south-west, west, middle. While north (ober, "Stoa-Steirisch", Stoa = Stein / stone) is not part of the south-bavarian subfamily, there is an additional capital city dialect. I grew up in the capital so I speak this, but my family originates in the south-west, so they talk rather differently, there. The problem comes, when you want to transliterate the different dialects. For some reason some people insist to type in their local variant. It is a mess. It changes by small regions, by the way. This mostly includes directions, they are based on the flow direction of the main river of the region and the place where you want to go.
Tracing back my family tree using church records I found at least 6 different spellings of my past name (in many different hands, who invented Cursive again? I curse him!).
The records reach back to 1642. Where did we come from? No Idea, but certainly from a migrational movement that was imposed on the area. The original population was of Slovenian origin, and as usually, they also mixed, which is a happy fact
Bavarians mostly say “Goaß”, when they are referring to a goat, and “Müch”, when they are referring to milk.
Best
Gert
P.s.: The only thing I have to (dis)prove in the future, is my assumption that the marginalia on f166v are not contemporary to the VMS writing. Wish me luck. Thank you.
RE: Cental European origin - Aga Tentakulus - 26-12-2019
I'm glad you have so many reasons. You're right about most of them. But you do not understand the technique of the search.
Sometimes it's better to look for it where it isn't.
For example, "Gas me" will never have anything to do with goat's milk. People are influenced by the goat upstairs. But I've already written about that. Let people think what they want.
It's the same with the armadillo. In 1950, some professor wrote " it looks like an armadillo ".
Today people believe that it is one. If clouds look like sheep, do you believe in a flock of sheep in the sky?
RE: Cental European origin - voynichbombe - 26-12-2019
Basically, what I am saying is: This does not mean "goats milk"
RE: Cental European origin - Aga Tentakulus - 26-12-2019
That's right, no goat milk.
2nd question: Where do the battlements occur if there were none north of the Alps before 1500 AC, but German is still spoken south of the Alps.
If so where ?
If there were battlements before 1500 north, where are they?
The previous pictures show the battlements in 3 different construction stages on German spoken ground.
RE: Cental European origin - voynichbombe - 26-12-2019
You are referring to the "Zinnen", right? Or the "Festung" per se? Because I don't really recognize the swallowtail ("Schwalbenschwanz") battlements in the picture. Where is this fastness, and what is it called?
I'm into castles very much, myself, but I did not have time to look for a database of swallowtail battlements in use over time
Maybe a task for the future.In my harm opinion, there is no connection to the language spoken, at a certain time. Castles and lands were taken & lost like in a split moment. What is known is, that invaders quickly adapted to local customs, mostly including architecture, but also language, out of necessity. "When in Rome, do like the romans do", so to say.
We are slightly straying from the thread topic.. But I would like to learn more about your idea with castles and languages.
RE: Cental European origin - Aga Tentakulus - 26-12-2019
The topic is called Central Europe. We are not that far away.
Three questions. How far can the images of the crowns be included in this area? Can the history of the region confirm this ? And do the possible plants fit in ?
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RE: Cental European origin - Aga Tentakulus - 27-12-2019
See ruin Maultasch and Neuhaus
2nd stage, see directly above archway
RE: Cental European origin - Aga Tentakulus - 27-12-2019
4th question: Is there more consistency between VM and region?
Yes, a lot. You just have to know where to look.
RE: Cental European origin - voynichbombe - 27-12-2019
Interesting, thank you for the inspirations! While three questions are a bit lot
While I would like to go into this topic (and prior research done) in depth, lets first put an english gtranslation link of your link for our fellow readers to be able to enjoy:
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It would really help if you told the name & the location of the castle in your picture.
What I can say at a first shot, if you want to stay connected to the German language: The swallowtail battlements were more a decorative feature, and somehow a mark (maybe heraldry) of the Guelphs and Ghibellines (Welfen) of Baden-Würtemberg / Stuttgart region, but active in now South-Tirol and North-Italy. Back then (when) there were no such things, as outlined in another post: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
I only find mentions of castles in these regions, not north of the alps. If you have references, please share them!
I still don't quite get the connection to the german language? South-Tyrol and North-Italy are not _exactly Central Europe, but that depends on what map of which time you are looking at.
The plants are indeed an interesting question. I was looking into so called "Burggartenflüchtlinge (Castle Garden Refugees)" a while ago. The seeds spread outside of the castle garden of course and specimen can be found until today. Some of them were "imports", neophytes of some kind.
So are you referring to the castle garden plants? Because, these can be easily located and dated (by a fair amount) by looking up botanical Herbariæ databases, like this one:
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Edit/
P.s.: But sorry, I have to add this, most experts of botany abstain from identifying plants in medieval manuscripts before a certain time, for a good reason: impossible.
Good Luck!
/Edit
RE: Cental European origin - voynichbombe - 27-12-2019
Ah, I missed your fourth question. I have an idea about this, but it will have to wait until tomorrow.