f65R any identifications? - Printable Version

f65R any identifications? - Printable Version

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f65R any identifications? - Dispator - 02-10-2017

[Image: f065r_crd.jpg]

RE: f65R any identifications? - -JKP- - 02-10-2017

My list of possible IDs includes several of the northern Saxifrages, Filipendula (pictured below), water dropwort (Oenanthe silaifolia), and Pimpinella saxifraga.

At first glance, Filipendula might not seem like a good match, because it has fern-like leaves (the VMS leaves are more palmate), but some of the Filipendula species have leaves that are a bit broader and more complexly indented that might inspire someone to draw them more palmate.

There are a few more that I've investigated, but the ones I mentioned above are at the top of my list so far:

several species of Saxifrage (Saxifrage is a very variable species, but some resemble the VMS drawing)
Filipendula (pictured above)
water dropwort (Oenanthe silaifolia), which has star-shaped flowers and finger-like roots
Pimpinella saxifraga (not my top choice, it has fern-like leaves and an umbellate flower-head, but maybe should be considered).

RE: f65R any identifications? - Dispator - 02-10-2017

(02-10-2017, 02:27 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.My list of possible IDs includes several of the northern Saxifrages, Filipendula (pictured below), water dropwort (Oenanthe silaifolia), and Pimpinella saxifraga.

At first glance, Filipendula might not seem like a good match, because it has fern-like leaves (the VMS leaves are more palmate), but some of the Filipendula species have leaves that are a bit broader and more complexly indented that might inspire someone to draw them more palmate.

There are a few more that I've investigated, but the ones I mentioned above are at the top of my list so far:

several species of Saxifrage (Saxifrage is a very variable species, but some resemble the VMS drawing)

Filipendula (pictured above)

water dropwort (Oenanthe silaifolia), which has star-shaped flowers and finger-like roots

Pimpinella saxifraga (not my top choice, it has fern-like leaves and an umbellate flower-head, but maybe should be considered).

hey, you seem to be my most frequent chat buddy Smile

Those are some solid candidates. I got a question for you J.K. considering the iconography of the manuscript would you say that the flowers here are depicted dried?

RE: f65R any identifications? - -JKP- - 02-10-2017

A number of them show signs of having been drawn from flattened specimens. I think there's a pretty high probability that viola and knapweed were drawn from specimens, considering the way the leaves are facing the viewer on viola, and are flattened together on the knapweed.

I don't know if they all were, but some show signs of it.

RE: f65R any identifications? - Dispator - 02-10-2017

(02-10-2017, 10:43 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.A number of them show signs of having been drawn from flattened specimens. I think there's a pretty high probability that viola and knapweed were drawn from specimens, considering the way the leaves are facing the viewer on viola, and are flattened together on the knapweed.

I don't know if they all were, but some show signs of it.

Thanks i agree, can you maybe share your thoughts about You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. im fairly convinced that the top part of the plant is shown in its dried state.

RE: f65R any identifications? - -JKP- - 02-10-2017

I think that the plant that resembles knapweed ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ) may also be a dried plant for several reasons...

The leaves are drawn flattened on top of each other, very much like a herbarium specimen.
The color chosen for the flower in the VMS drawing is a faded amber. There are a few knapweeds that are close to this color in nature, but almost all of them become this washed-out pale yellow color when you dry them and there are only a few knapweeds with this kind of leaf (and they tend to be shades of pink or violet rather than a washed-out yellow color).
The flowers have that slightly thickened look that you get when you squash them flat.
The stem has been painted a brownish-red. Most knapweeds have green stems but they tend to turn a brownish-red color when they are dried.

Of course, the amount of the color change depends partly on how long the plant has been drying (and sometimes how quickly), but these are pretty typical color changes for this particular plant.

so... if Plant 2r shows this many signs of being drawn from a dried specimen then it makes sense to look for other plants in the manuscript that may have the same characteristics.

I have seen quite a few drawings in medieval manuscripts that show "the old sages", the classical authors who wrote about herbs, drawing from plants that have been cut and placed in a vase. They're not dried specimens, but they have been collected and brought somewhere to be observed. There are also examples of manuscripts from the late 15th century and onward that consist of dried specimens rather than drawings, or dried specimens to which the roots have been added by hand. There is even a manuscript that was linked here recently (I think it was ReneZ who called it to our attention) in which some of the plants had been inked and pressed onto the page to make a monoprint and then had been painted over.

So, we see precedents, at least from the 15th century of the use of cut plants and dried plants as examples, as imprinting templates, and as actual herbarium specimens mounted into books.

RE: f65R any identifications? - Helmut Winkler - 03-10-2017

I am not so sure these are dried plants. To me the plants of the herbal look like plants pulled out with the roots, laid down somewhere and then a drawing was made This is the the same way as any modern botanist would do it, quite remarkable in my opinion, The earliest known herbals in these sense are a century later.

RE: f65R any identifications? - -JKP- - 03-10-2017

The practice of collecting the dried specimens to arrange them into books did not occur with any frequency until the 16th and 17th centuries, but herbs had been dried for centuries earlier, in order to store them and transport them.

I find it hard to believe that artists creating the drawings for herbal manuscripts never looked at these for reference, considering that they were surrounded by them in kitchens and marketplaces. Not every drawing in medieval herbals is copied. When the corpus was expanded with new plants, especially in northern areas like England, they added local plants that were not included in the Mediterranean herbals. Some of these were no doubt live plants, but since rosemary, sage, thyme, oregano, parsley (the culinary herbs) and many medicinal herbs were dried by cooks and apothecaries, and hung upside-down from walls and shelves for several days before powdering them, they were easily within reaching distance of anyone who wanted to look at one while trying to draw that particular plant.

Also, the practice of arranging dried flowers is centuries old. Women's arts, such as embroidery, lace-making, weaving garlands, making jewelry from hair, etc., included collecting and pressing flowers. I don't know exactly when it started, but it's quite possible this also occurred before scientists started assembling dried specimens into books.

RE: f65R any identifications? - Davidsch - 04-10-2017

Following an idea, does there exist a plant that becomes slowly white on the top and then perhaps (something that looks like dry out) top-down?

RE: f65R any identifications? - -JKP- - 04-10-2017

(04-10-2017, 04:36 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Following an idea, does there exist a plant that becomes slowly white on the top and then perhaps (something that looks like dry out) top-down?

That's quite possible, but it might apply to many plants.

I've had a herbarium collection for a long time (something I started in childhood, abandoned when I moved out and then started again later), so I've seen some interesting things happen...

Some plants retain their shapes and colors almost perfectly, others are almost unrecognizable after they have dried, but it's a bit hard to chart their progress because if you open the drying pages before it's completely dried, it can ruin the specimen (the plant is still damp and becomes fragile and tears).

The same thing happens to plants that are left uncut, out in the field. Some retain their shapes and sometimes even their color through winter, some dry out from the flower to the leaves, others lose their leaves and retain the flower and berries. Nature is pretty inventive.

I don't know how difficult it would be to find out or figure out which plants behave the way you describe