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"De Balneis" - a recap - Printable Version

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RE: "De Balneis" - a recap - -JKP- - 31-10-2017

Some details in Bodmer 135:

1. Note the pointy feet on the containers (pointy feet were also recently shown in Diane's container-montage, but from an eastern source). I mention it because pointy feet are found in a number of settings.


2. Note also the tub-like (zoomer-like) container in which the bather barely fits (the VMS is full of people in tubs):

   



These may be coincidences, but I thought them worth noting.

RE: "De Balneis" - a recap - Koen G - 31-10-2017

That (ceramic?) pot is remarkable indeed. If you were to slim it down, the horizontal lines, decorative elements and even color would make a good match for some of the VM containers.

RE: "De Balneis" - a recap - MarcoP - 31-10-2017

The foot of the vase in the Bodmer manuscript is quite interesting indeed. I want to point out that the original image (Angelica Library) didn't mean this to be a bathing tub: that is a later corruption. The Bodmer ms is ambiguous. In the Valencia ms, a person is clearly inside the vase.
Of course, a foot like that in the Bodmer ms would be impractical for a bathing tub (not stable enough).

RE: "De Balneis" - a recap - Koen G - 31-10-2017

Oh, you are right. I think in the Bodmer it is still meant to be a steam pot. Maybe herbs were added to this as well? 

By the way, is it known whether the original MS was illuminated? The pictures in the Angelica look so Byzantine. I'm not sure if this was still normal around 1250.

RE: "De Balneis" - a recap - -JKP- - 31-10-2017

(31-10-2017, 12:17 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Oh, you are right. I think in the Bodmer it is still meant to be a steam pot. Maybe herbs were added to this as well? 

By the way, is it known whether the original MS was illuminated? The pictures in the Angelica look so Byzantine. I'm not sure if this was still normal around 1250.


I would have to double-check but I don't think the original was illuminated. A little less than half of the ones that were known a few decades ago were illuminated. I think at least a couple more are known now, but I can't remember if the more recent aquisitions or finds are illuminated.

RE: "De Balneis" - a recap - VViews - 01-11-2017

Thanks for that comparison between the 3 images MarcoP.
It shows how copying can lead to a change in the images: the pot which was clearly in front of the person in the first one is enlarged in the second one, leading the third illustrator to interpret it as containing the person.
It is an interesting process in itself, and one which may well give us some insight into the genesis of some of the Voynich imagery. Perhaps, in addition to people in tubs, we should look for images of tubs in front of people.

RE: "De Balneis" - a recap - bi3mw - 11-11-2017

Not only the pot shows similarities. Also another object in the Balneis could be shown in the VMS. At least the shape of the thing on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is similar to the one on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in Ms. 838 ( title: "Miniatura sobre el bany anomenat sulfurós" ).

[Image: comp_vms_80v_Ms_838_4r.png]

RE: "De Balneis" - a recap - -JKP- - 27-11-2017

Marco posted some good comparisons upthread, that include the columns and pairing:

[Image: attachment.php?aid=1776]


And this was posted on Ellie Velinska's site, which includes someone in noble headgear to the right of the bathers:

[Image: vms%2Bovid2.png]
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The nymphs within archways from Balneis were also posted on David's? site:

[Image: ritual-water5-313x400.jpg]





Diane posted this on her recent blog:

[Image: ladies-in-liquids.jpg]
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I don't see very much similarity between the body types, the hair color or styles, the style of drawing, the solid dark water, the square bathing area, or other aspects of the Asiatic bathers in Diane's example when compared to the VMS or the Balneis illustrations.

The VMS nymphs are chubby (or pregnant) blondes wearing braids and rolled headdresses that were very common in many parts of Europe and are standing in lightly painted water in rounded more naturally shaped bathing areas (and under archways) as are found in the Balneis illustrations. The only similarity I see is that it's a communal bathing pic with figures gesturing.

RE: "De Balneis" - a recap - -JKP- - 03-02-2018

These baths don't have the same grotto-and-cave feeling to them that the VMS baths and Balneis baths have, but I thought the articles might nevertheless be of interest:


Daily Mail, Feb 1: Article on a pool complex in Israel that was still in use during the Byzantine era:

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This is an older article (Archaeology Magazine, Feb. 2017) about a Roman bathhouse uncovered in NW France:

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A re-creation of the Antonine baths in Carthage and a link to some photos of how it looks now:

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And I include this one only because the sculpture is quite beautiful:

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RE: "De Balneis" - a recap - bi3mw - 01-01-2020

These illustrations in Ott.lat.2110 have a certain similarity with the illustrations in Quire 13 in the VMS. The tents at the top of folio 14r could be the cause for various speculations ( umbrella/pinecone things ).

[Image: balneis0.png]

Vatican Library, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., folio 13r and 14r