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+--- Thread: 68r1 and 2 (/thread-2088.html)
RE: 68r1 and 2 - -JKP- - 20-10-2019
From a conceptual point of view, someone might be thinking, "Here is an image of God creating the heavens and the earth" (with heavens being stars), "so maybe I could use this idea to illustrate the most important ones..."
I find myself frequently thinking of the VMS as a "book of knowledge" and sometimes as a teaching guide (parent to child, for example). Other days, I think of it as a reference book (mainly the plant pics). Maybe the different sections have different intentions.
The problem with the "star labels" is they are very homogenous. There is very little variety in the glyphs or their placement.
Now... most star names are Arabic (and even the English knew the Arabic names in the early medieval period, I made a point of looking for them in manuscripts), so seeing "Al" or "Ar at the beginnings of numerous star names would not be unusual but... the VMS seems to take repetition two steps beyond what one would expect.
PS, off-topic: I really like the drawing of Paradise in this manuscript, Koen. I recognized it without having to read the text even though the four rivers illustration is fairly abstract. It shows how the iconography really does work once you are familiar with the symbols.
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Pardis Motiee - 11-03-2021
Lol. These are written in moon and sun figures of 68r1 and 68r2:
68r1
1. It's in Pleiades
2. The extreme heat
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68r2
1. It shines. extreme heat
2. The heat is in it.
RE: 68r1 and 2 - -JKP- - 11-03-2021
(11-03-2021, 02:58 PM)Pardis Motiee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Lol. These are written in moon and sun figures of 68r1 and 68r2:
68r1
1. It's in Pleiades
2. The extreme heat
--------------------------------
68r2
1. It shines. extreme heat
2. The heat is in it.
Can you post the transliteration?
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Pardis Motiee - 11-03-2021
68r1 , upper figure , the sun circlular writings:
V.RI.V, S.A.R.V, A.RI.A.V.RI.D.T.V
وری سار اریا وریدت
وری ساریا وری دت
سریا دت
ثریا دت
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ثریا: خوشه ی پروین
Pleiades
دت : از اسمای بنات نعش
Names of Banate naesh
بنات نعش: هفت ستاره در آسمان ،قسمتی از صورت فلکی دب اکبر ،هفت اورنگ
Banate naesh: Seven star in the sky, Part of Ursa Major, Haft Orang
The corrected translation: Pleiades,HaftOrang
(I've done a search and it seems ثریا & بنات نعش were synonyms in the past.)
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I have to check the other figures and see whether they are star names or not.
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(I am unable to post more, it can make confusement, just heard it is an unwritten rule. Sorry.)
What are the stars? - Pardis Motiee - 28-04-2021
I think after omissions, the folio 68 may have some constellation names: 22 serpens (mar) and 17 leo (asad). What other names can you see with this procedure?
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Anton - 28-04-2021
Merged threads.
Treating f68r1 and r2 as constellations is a tricky path, if fact one of the very first threads of this forum was dedicated to such attempt: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
As I wrote elsewhere, I'm far from sure that labels are star or constellation names at all.
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Pardis Motiee - 22-10-2021
I think it can be an illustration of winter night sky. Maybe the names are given by the writer. The other possibility is that we may not be able to read them this way.
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Hider - 12-12-2021
Inscriptions under the stars.
It is very likely that the author gave the coordinates of the stars, not their names.
RE: 68r1 and 2 - MarcoP - 12-12-2021
I am not aware of medieval star maps where stars are labelled with coordinates. Labels typically were names, or numbers pointing to paragraphs or entries in a table.
Morphologically, star labels are not too different from Voynichese paragraph "words": this also is not in favor of the idea that they are coordinates (or numbers).
RE: 68r1 and 2 - Hider - 12-12-2021
(12-12-2021, 10:54 AM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am not aware of medieval star maps where stars are labelled with coordinates. Labels typically were names, or numbers pointing to paragraphs or entries in a table.There is no doubt that there are numbers written on this map. The low quality of the image does not allow us to identify these numbers accurately.
Morphologically, star labels are not too different from Voynichese paragraph "words": this also is not in favor of the idea that they are coordinates (or numbers).