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The Face in Plant 17v - Printable Version

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RE: The Face in Plant 17v - Koen G - 02-01-2018

Thanks, Marco! I must admit that sometimes indeed I have participated in the discussion of a MS but then forgot all about it. A side effect of taking it all in in a short time, I believe. If there is no thematic link then the "pairing" is just coincidental. 

Still I'm glad I got reminded of this MS again. Too bad there don't appear to be any better scans available..

RE: The Face in Plant 17v - -JKP- - 03-01-2018

Marco, those are good parallels.


It's reassuring to know I got grape-vine and allium right just by glancing at them. I had completely forgotten that primrose was sometimes drawn that way (as soon as I saw the one in the herbal Marco posted, I smacked my head and thought, oh right, they do primrose that way). It's not a very good drawing of primrose, but at least they were somewhat consistent in how they represented it.


At one point I sat down and worked through all the Palatino 586 drawings, read all the captions, and even figured out how to interpret the figures around the bottom (the illustrator had a certain way of "storytelling" related to the plants), but it was several years ago, so they are no longer fresh in my mind. I would have to look them up in my files. I wasn't able to figure out all the metaphorical references, but some of them make sense after a while and they usually relate to the use of the plant.

RE: The Face in Plant 17v - Koen G - 03-01-2018

Which makes it rather Voynich like in a way. Only the VM went unusually far in the blending of figures and plants.... to the extent that most figures could be plant parts entirely. Root creatures often don't get heads, to make them blend in more naturally. Why? There must have been a motivation for that, it's not something one naturally does.

Anyway.. any idea what the faces on the ground in the top right drawing represent?

RE: The Face in Plant 17v - -JKP- - 03-01-2018

(03-01-2018, 08:02 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
Anyway.. any idea what the faces on the ground in the top right drawing represent?


No, I'm not sure of those, just as I am not sure of the plant (although maybe I have something about that plant in my notes).

But... I have noticed that when it's a guy with a beard, it's either some classical sage (often one of the four doctors), or one of the major gods (or Bacchus, as you have noted). Then, of course, one has to figure out if it's a reference to the plant's name, its use, or a personification of the governing planet for that plant.

RE: The Face in Plant 17v - ReneZ - 05-01-2018

The topic of Florence MS Pat. 586 came up in parallel in cipher mysteries and here - no coincidence I am sure.

The language of the MS has been the topic of several scholarly publications, which also deal with several other key questions related to it, such as the number of different contributors, the order of its creation and the style of the illustrations.
These have been summarised in one of the more recent publications, namely:
Matteo Milani (2004): "Aloes es caut e sec": edizione di un erbario occitano, (Firenze, Biblioteca Nazionale Centrale, Palatino 586), La parola del testo, 2, VIII, p.369-391.

The various authors do not seem to agree whether there are one or two different illustrators. It seems clear that the work was interrupted for a longer time, and picked up again later, possibly (but not certainly) by another illustrator.

Marco already pointed out the parallel with Egerton 747, and Pal.586 derives directly from it. It is believed that Egerton 747 was already in France from an early stage in its history.

Despite the title of the article, the language is not positively identified as Occitan. In fact, different parts appear to be in different varieties of French provencal, including Occitan, and there are Latin elements too.
It is ascribed to the 'larger area of the Provence', with a suggestion to the bordering area of the langue d'oc and langue d'öil (Auvergne - Limousin).

With respect to the marginal illustrations, it is stated that "many of the figures and grotesques are allusions [...] to the common name or use of the plant in question". Here Milani is quoting Minta Collins.

RE: The Face in Plant 17v - -JKP- - 05-01-2018

I wish I had more free time. I have figured out quite a few of the figural drawings in Palatino 586. I went through every drawing in the manuscript a few years ago, identifying the plants, reading the text, and working out the stories in the illustrations.

I have the notes in my files, but I would have to dig them up and go through them and write them out.

RE: The Face in Plant 17v - -JKP- - 06-01-2018

This vine drawing (Bodley Pseudo Apuleius 11th c) is similar to Palatino 586 in the way the fruits are drawn, but lacks the tendrils:

[Image: pseudo-apuleius-herbarius-bodleian_orig.jpg]

RE: The Face in Plant 17v - CaryR - 03-04-2021

Hope it's alright if I revive this thread. Something caught my interest that was mentioned a while back in this thread, so I wanted to comment here instead of starting a new thread.

VViews mentioned the Giotto painting, "Morte di san Francesco," from the Assisi basilica, that was found to contain the "hidden" face of a devil that is camouflaged in the edge of some of the painted clouds. (In 2011 an art historian who had studied these frescoes for over 30 years suddenly noticed this detail, that no one had noticed for centuries since its creation in the late 13th century (or at least it is not recorded that anyone noticed before.)

   
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While images of hidden faces like this were rare, I wondered what other similar examples from medieval art were known and whether there is any connection between them.

One other example I found is also from an Italian fresco: Ambrogio Lorenzetti's "Effects of Good Government" (part of the fresco series "The Allegory of Good and Bad Government" at Palazzo Pubblico, Siena, 1338-9). In one section of the painting, a winged figure (a personification of Security) hovers over the city walls and holds a small gallows with a hanged man, apparently to show that one of the virtues of a "good government" is its effective criminal justice. The fabric of the hanged man's clothing is blowing in the wind, and the fabric folds seem to form a noticeable profile of a devil's face.

A section of the painting:
   
   

This seems to be a less well-known example, since I could find little written about it, but the main source I could find is a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. that has an interesting take on why the devil's face might be hidden in this manner:

"In medieval imagery, it's not unusual to find civil offenders surrounded or even goaded by devils... Even, the proximity of devilish figures to hanged persons is not a novelty... Their faults, as social evils, have to be considered not only capital crimes, but also deadly sins. So those guilty, as disparate ("hopeless"), have--or rather wear--a kind of demonic, for they should be totally eliminated from the civil community. However, the hiding of the devil's face by Lorenzetti in the dress-folds of the hanged man seems to disclose a more peculiar sense, which draws this finding up to that--more famed--made in Assisi Giotto's fresco by Chiara Frugoni, and which is perhaps to be related with the presence of the positive figure of the "angel" Security and, in general, with the positive message of Buon Governo. Evil, even if subdued by the triumph of Good, appears then to be not completely "erased": its presence still keeps threatening, this time in a hidden way, by the effects of Good."

It is difficult because examples are rare, but does anyone know of any other, or better, examples of this kind of "hidden face" and if so, is the face meant to represent someone "good" or "bad"?

I know that only two examples don't make a pattern, but I wonder... if there is an intentional profile in the VM's plant of f17v, could a reason for the departure from the VM's usual style of drawing faces be because it represents an "unseen" presence of the devil?

RE: The Face in Plant 17v - Koen G - 03-04-2021

Thanks, Cary! Too bad the detail in the second fresco is so small, it's hard to see whether the face is intentional. But Giotto's cloud face is undeniably present, it's almost like a solid white mask placed on the nebulous cloud.

I hope I have enough time today or tomorrow to finish my blog post about f17v... This is probably a relevant piece of the puzzle, so I will include it Smile

Overall I have the impression that faces/profiles hidden or worked into places where they don't belong are usually of the unpleasant or uncivilized kind. This may have something to do with the unnatural placement. Or perhaps because the practice invites the use of exaggerated facial features (see the large nose on Giotto's cloud). Maybe it is easier to include the profile of a devil than that of an angel or beautiful lady.

[Image: g4.047va.jpg]

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[Image: m919.001va.jpg]

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RE: The Face in Plant 17v - R. Sale - 03-04-2021

Seeing faces again, are we? But I agree, there are faces there to be seen. The artists have the talent to be subtle, to draw something that is suggestive, or doubtful.

Another thing is the historical use of euphemistic 'sayings', that may once have been understood visually, but have gotten lost over time. One might say of the hanged man, that the devil had his coattails and the suggestive, facial features would have brought that to mind.

But, whose face is it? Is it always the devil, or does the vine outline the face of Dionysius / Bacchus, or some other personification? What was the intended interpretation? It depends on the sources and circumstances.

Heraldry makes interpretation and identification so much easier. Two separate, historical, heraldic factors intersect at the conjunction of known, 'traditional' events. All it requires is the benefit of a common tradition, hidden in the VMs.