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+--- Thread: The Face in Plant 17v (/thread-2044.html)
RE: The Face in Plant 17v - Koen G - 20-08-2017
VViews, thanks for your very informative reply. I do believe the VM images are compiled from different sources. This is not unusual since we are dealing with a variety of subjects. So for me the style of the profile is not an issue, but rather confirms my opinion.
But even if you want to stay within the VM, there is also only one nymph facing the viewer, one or two looking away from us... so deviations are possible.
I don't think the land mass looks half as much like a face as tendrilface does
What you said about the cultural aspects of perspective is quite interesting. Is there something we could learn from the nynphs' overwhelming preference for threr quarter view?
RE: The Face in Plant 17v - VViews - 20-08-2017
Not really, three-quarter views are pretty standard in European medieval manuscripts. Three-quarters tends to be preferred over head-on in manuscript illumination, in general. Noses are just easier to draw that way than head-on, especially when you have limited space/tools/time/skills, and I suspect this has always played a rather large part in that!
And keep in mind that there are more faces than just the nymphs: there are the sun/moon ones, as well as the faces in plant roots, and again, none show a profile view.
Deviations are possible, of course, as in the case of the figures depicted from the back: in this case I suspect this does bear rather specific clues about the artist's inspiration. The tradition to which the Rothschild Canticles belong (mentioned by ReneZ You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ) is a very interesting candidate.
But in the case of tendrilface, if you wanted to establish any probability that it is intentional, you'd have to find at least one example of a face made of tendrils or other plant parts, and as far as I know, there are none that pre-date the Voynich. I may be wrong, but it will be up to you to find them, if they exist.
RE: The Face in Plant 17v - Koen G - 20-08-2017
Hmm yes you are right about three quarter view. There may be something universal about it. It's even used in modern day cartoons.
Now about profiles. I'm typing from my phone atm so I can't check, I hope my visual memory doesn't deceive me. There's a male nymph top right on f76 r or v. The one with both hands forward as if to catch something, standing isolated from the rest. I hope I'm not making a fool of myself, but I'm pretty sure he's drawn in profile.
It would be a stretch to connect this to tendrilface - though both are clearly male - but remarkable nonetheless. I'm quite fond of nymph rules and exceptions to them, so thanks for bringing this up.
RE: The Face in Plant 17v - Koen G - 20-08-2017
So I've finally had the opportunity to check this. It's quite fascinating. A quick scan revealed the following profiles:
- f75v
- f76v
- ring man (this might be due to his large, hooked nose. It lies somewhere in between profile and 3/4)
f.76v remains the clearest example. Comparison to tendrilface:
RE: The Face in Plant 17v - MarcoP - 22-08-2017
(20-08-2017, 11:27 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.f.76v remains the clearest example. Comparison to tendrilface:
Also compare with Egerton 747 f.26v.
RE: The Face in Plant 17v - Koen G - 02-01-2018
Likely a coincidence, but I'll post it anyways because the MS (Palatino 586) is regularly referred to in VM discussions - with good reason.
There's a vine plant, and the plant next to it has a root shaped like face profiles. Does anyone know which plants these are and if there's a reason why they are "connected"?
![[Image: p58634rn.jpg]](http://www.bncf.firenze.sbn.it/Bib_digitale/Manoscritti/Palat586/p58634rn.jpg)
RE: The Face in Plant 17v - -JKP- - 02-01-2018
(02-01-2018, 08:53 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Likely a coincidence, but I'll post it anyways because the MS (Palatino 586) is regularly referred to in VM discussions - with good reason.
There's a vine plant, and the plant next to it has a root shaped like face profiles. Does anyone know which plants these are and if there's a reason why they are "connected"?
Bottom left may be star flower (the European version, there is one that is similar in North America). It has broad spreading leaves (usually spreading more than this drawing, however) and the flowers are small and very delicate. In the summer the flowers are above the leaves, but they move below the leaves in fall. The root has a very slight enlargement in the European species and a slightly bigger enlargement in the North American variety. The plant is similar to the New World Indian cucumber, but the root is not as enlarged.
The bottom right might be some species of what they lumped together as "cepa" (various forms of Allium/onion). I think squill is identified earlier in the manuscript (if I remember correctly), so it's probably not squill, but there are a number of others with swollen stalks. It could be many other plants with swollen stalks, as well, but various forms of Allium were common in this form of herbal.
RE: The Face in Plant 17v - Koen G - 02-01-2018
But I mean the top row
RE: The Face in Plant 17v - -JKP- - 02-01-2018
Top right could be Pedicularis or any number of ferns or odd-pinnate plants. There are so many.
Top left also difficult, there are so many vines with palmate leaves and poofy flowers. It might be hops (Humulus lupulus), grapes, maybe clematis (but less likely since the leaves are less palmate), porcelain berry (far eastern). There's a New World cucumber with flowers like this, but it's less likely.
Based on the flowers, the squashes/cucumbers, passion flowers, bryonies, and bindweeds can probably be excluded.
RE: The Face in Plant 17v - MarcoP - 02-01-2018
Hi Koen,
as I think we discussed, the text of Palatino 586 is based on Tractatus de Herbis, and the ms is accordingly arranged in alphabetical order. If you go through Egerton 747 starting from where the Palatino text stops, with some patience, it's possible to see that the images largely correspond (but for the fact that the Egerton illustrations are strictly scientific / naturalistic).
The page you attached (f34) corresponds to Egerton 747 f50r/v.
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The four plants appear to be:
Inantes / Lambruscus - Grapewine
(Woad seems to be missing in the Platino ms)
Ina / Yva - Ground-pine [this looks partially different, one should check later copies of the De Herbis]
Incensaria - Primrose
Ieribulbus - Garlic
(Latin names form the ms, English from the BL site).