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+--- Thread: f34v (/thread-2038.html)
RE: f34v - Koen G - 21-10-2021
Thank you for checking, Marco! Excuse me if this is a stupid question, I don't know much about alchemy, but is it possible that a "concept" of the plant existed in alchemy - related traditions that was separate from the actual plant? And so that folk names for the plant, whatever those may have been, existed in a separate sphere? Unfortunately the herb seems to have been of little interest outside of alchemy, even though especially the wild variety grows profusely in some regions.
RE: f34v - bi3mw - 21-10-2021
(21-10-2021, 05:46 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Some texts point out that the round leaves look like coins
Quote:Corpus Christi College MS 395 — Catalan Lunaria
Translation [f48v] by Marco:
Its leaf is rounded like a silver florin[?],....
If I am correct, a "florin" is a medieval coin. So we have also here a direct reference from Lunaria to a concrete coin ( as comparison ). From there it is not far to the naming as "Silberling" or similar.
Quote:The city of Florence founded a mint in 1237 and minted the first silver florin (fiorino d'argento). Until then, the common coin had been the denaro, but this had lost so much of its value with the decline of the Holy Roman Empire that higher-value coins from the then still larger cities of Siena and Lucca also came into circulation.
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Italy Fiorino d'argento 1198-1532 Republic (1198 – 1532) Florence
RE: f34v - nablator - 21-10-2021
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All names are there. No sources, dates are given unfortunately.
RE: f34v - Koen G - 21-10-2021
The name seems to appear in Dutch, German and French. I found the Dutch form in a number of dictionaries throughout the 1800's, nothing earlier yet.
RE: f34v - Anton - 22-10-2021
Wikipedia says that Hartlieb used Lunaria in a recipe of a flying ointment, circa 1440. Unfortunatlely, it is not specified what is the exact work of his, and what exactly name he does use.
The same Wikipedia article suggests that Judas in this plant's name is more typical for Northern Europe, such as in Dutch and Danish.
RE: f34v - MarcoP - 22-10-2021
(21-10-2021, 06:23 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thank you for checking, Marco! Excuse me if this is a stupid question, I don't know much about alchemy, but is it possible that a "concept" of the plant existed in alchemy - related traditions that was separate from the actual plant? And so that folk names for the plant, whatever those may have been, existed in a separate sphere? Unfortunately the herb seems to have been of little interest outside of alchemy, even though especially the wild variety grows profusely in some regions.
Hi Koen,
I don't know much about alchemy either. Since most alchemical concepts (like the Stone or the Elixir) appear to be symbolical, it could be that the alchemical Lunaria is similarly removed from objective existence.
Looking at manuscripts, it seems that there were many different types of Lunaria: for three of the four in the alchemical herbal a believable medical usage is given (the fourth has magical properties). Since the alchemical herbal appears to be close to popular lore, it could be that Lunaria was a folk name of some actual plants somewhere (Southern Italy?). Of course, it is well possible that other folk names were used in other regions.
About a different angle: it is possible to speculate that Judas' 30 silver coins are related with the moon, because of silver and because of the number of days in a (lunar) month. I believe You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is far-fetched, but if the figure of Christ was influenced by older Sun-myths, it could be that Moon-myths also play a role.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. hints at a Sun/gold/good, Moon/silver/evil connection that could also be relevant.
RE: f34v - MichelleL11 - 22-10-2021
(22-10-2021, 08:30 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Wikipedia says that Hartlieb used Lunaria in a recipe of a flying ointment, circa 1440. Unfortunatlely, it is not specified what is the exact work of his, and what exactly name he does use.
The same Wikipedia article suggests that Judas in this plant's name is more typical for Northern Europe, such as in Dutch and Danish.
Hi, Anton and all:
It is Buch aller verboten Kunst (which was originally entitled what was translated in 2017 by Richard Kieckhefer as Hazards of the Dark Arts: Advice for Medieval Princes on Witchcraft and Magic). Here is a translation (likely Kieckhefer's or maybe Falk Eisermann and Eckhard Graf. Ahlerstedt or Frank Furbeth, who translated parts in 1989) of this section:
The section is cited as chapter 32 by at least one commenter.
Here is a link to the Handscriftencensus page for this work:
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Two of the three copies have been fully digitized, but I have run into that old problem of "can't read medieval German language or handwriting" and have been unable to match up the translated text with the original medieval German. So I can't tell you what name for certain Hartlieb called Lunaria in the original. But I've seen enough translations of this work to say he did tend to use the Latin terms, rather than common names with plants.
Perhaps someone with more German skills can find the exact page in one or the other digitized copies.
Thanks,
Michelle
RE: f34v - bi3mw - 22-10-2021
In "Das puch aller verpoten kunst, ungelaubens und der zaubrey" by Johannes Hartlieb "Botrychium lunaria" (trivial name "Mondraute" ) is listed as Lunaria. It is one of seven herbs that can be relatively reliably determined as a component of the flying ointment.
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edit: Elsewhere it is said that on Monday (mentag) Lunariam (Lunaria) should be harvested. Here the link clearly refers to Lunaria annua. So there are contradictory statements.
RE: f34v - Koen G - 22-10-2021
Thanks, Michele, that's a cool quote. I guess it's also logical that the name lunaria is used in alchemy in order to facilitate the "moon, silver, Monday..." network of meaning.
Regarding the Judas connection, it seems to have arisen at least in the Germanic world and in French. If this happened independently it is probably a bit like Marco says that there are conceptual reasons to connect Judas to the plant. If it did not happen independently, there may be some source or work that spread the name.
RE: f34v - MichelleL11 - 22-10-2021
Thanks so much for that German wiki link -- with the transcription I was able to find the manuscript text.
In one case the actual word was, I think, lunaria (Dresden, Landesbilbl., Mscr. M59) and in the other it is an abbreviated lunariam (macron = "m"; not sure what the little circle over the "u" stands for) (Wolfenbuttel, Herzog, August Bibl. Cod. 50.5 Aug. 2 degree).
Of course, I'm still learning on the handwriting, so I might have missed a letter or two. Bottom line, though, it was the Latin term in this manuscript description. Sorry to not be able to provide an early example of a common name.
Thanks,
Michelle