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+--- Thread: f34v (/thread-2038.html)
RE: f34v - bi3mw - 20-10-2021
(20-10-2021, 01:44 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Not necessarily. In Dutch, the most common names are tuinjudaspenning and wilde judaspenning respectively for the garden (tuin) and wild varieties. Wiki: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.OK, that's good to know. - A German source says that lunaria annua has been cultivated in gardens since the Middle Ages. Lunaria rediviva is already known since the Middle Ages as growing outdoors ( same source ). Thus, in both cases it is quite possible that the trivial names ( Silbertaler, Silberling, Judaspfennig... ) originate from the Middle Ages. Already the term "taler" suggests a naming from 1486 on. From this time there were the first silbertaler. The term Judaspfennig could of course be older. Unfortunately, I can not find any evidence for this.
The shape of the pods is circular in Lunaria annua and elipsoid in Lunaria rediviva. So Lunaria annua looks more like a coin ( Taler or Pfennig ).
RE: f34v - bi3mw - 20-10-2021
One source cites "Peter's Pence" as the medieval name for Lunaria annua.
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Quote:WHAT DOES PETER'S PENCE MEAN IN ENGLISH?
Peter's Pence is payment made voluntarily to the Roman Catholic Church. It began under the Saxons in England and is seen in other countries. Though formally discontinued in England at the time of the Reformation, a post-Reformation payment of uncertain characteristics is seen in some English manors into the 19th century. In 1871, Pope Pius IX formalized the practice of lay members of the church – and "other persons of good will" – providing financial support to the Roman See.
RE: f34v - Anton - 20-10-2021
(20-10-2021, 12:09 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Does anyone know if any of the medieval sources include vernacular names for lunaria? I find this a bit confusing since the plant seems to live a life of its own in more alchemy-oriented traditions. What I would like to learn is whether medieval names already included references to coins, specifically those of Judas, e.g. Silbertaler, Silberling, Judaspfennig, Médaille de Judas etc.
Silberblatter is at least as old as late 16th century:
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RE: f34v - Koen G - 20-10-2021
Hmm yes but that could be just about the color, without any biblical connection. Ftr, the reason why it intrigues me that lunaria is called "judas coins" is that this particular plant has 29 "coins", really close to Judas's 30. Moreover, they are arranged in a menorah-like shape which would be a reference to the ones who payed Judas this money (as any 15thC person would have known from the Bible story). The missing piece of information is whether the name "Judas coin" for lunaria, as it exists in various languages today, was already found in medieval vernacular.
RE: f34v - Anton - 20-10-2021
(20-10-2021, 09:24 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hmm yes but that could be just about the color, without any biblical connection
Ah, I see. I think Krauterbuch by Hartlieb is worth checking, I can't find it online at hand.
RE: f34v - bi3mw - 20-10-2021
(20-10-2021, 09:57 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Ah, I see. I think Krauterbuch by Hartlieb is worth checking, I can't find it online at hand.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Folio 237ar to 322r.
RE: f34v - Anton - 20-10-2021
Thanks bi3mw, that was quick! Looks like the order is alphabetical, so one just has to locate letters L for lunaria, S for Silber and J for Judas...
RE: f34v - Anton - 20-10-2021
Unfortunately I wasn't able to locate either
Even Mondkraut is not there
RE: f34v - MichelleL11 - 21-10-2021
Hi, all:
I have a searchable transcription of Hartlieb's herbal and can confirm that silber [in any form]; mond [in any form]; Judas [in any form]; taler [in any form]; pfennig [in any form] and luna [in any form] are not present in the manuscript. There are a few instances of ling but none of them are related to Lunaria.
It is sort of alphabetical, but like many medieval manuscripts it is not completely consistent.
If there are other examples you'd like me to search, just let me know.
Thanks,
Michelle
RE: f34v - MarcoP - 21-10-2021
I checked a few of the manuscripts I am familiar with, but I could not find anything about Judas.
The Alchemical Herbal features three four variants of Lunaria (#56, 69, 79, 86), but I have seen no reference to coins, silver etc.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. briefly mentions that a powder made of Lunaria turns copper into gold and tin into silver: this clearly is an alchemical process.
The Catalan manuscript I translated You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is much more extensive and it contains similar alchemical references: the plant turns silver and copper into gold. I think that the leaves are said to look like silver florins (I am not sure that florins are meant, the word "fironus" is obscure).
This text is related with the Hermetic "De Arbore qui dicitur Borissa id est Lunatica" that I discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In this case, there is no doubt that the leaves are said to look like coins (folia sunt rotunda ad modum dinariorum). Here the alchemical operation is a transmutation of silver into gold.
An alchemical Lunaria plants appear in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. I haven't fully transcribed the text, which is difficult to read, it could be partly ciphered and / or obscured (e.g. "de oro et de argento" - of gold and silver - was obscured as "de prp et de 6rgbntp").
Here the plant is used to "multiply" gold and silver: i.e. you need a small amount of the metals to start from and you use the Lunaria powder to generate more.
To summarize: the round or crescent-shaped leaves were associated with the Moon and consequently with silver (each of the seven metals was thought to be ruled by a planet, and silver was the metal of the moon). Some texts point out that the round leaves look like coins. One can speculate that the "doctrine of signatures" caused believes connected with silver and coins and therefore a connection with alchemy.