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+--- Thread: f34v (/thread-2038.html)
RE: f34v - -JKP- - 09-08-2017
(09-08-2017, 05:43 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP,
Perhaps I missed something, but how is it that the seeds are the only useful part of the asparagus?
What do you posit they were useful for? Some kind of apocalypse seed vault?I would say that getting food or even poison from the plant would be more useful, but again, maybe I missed something.
From what I could find online growing asparagus from seeds is the longest and most difficult way.
Sorry, VViews, I expressed my ideas on this in different posts and probably should have put it all together and prefaced that statement with the fact that the seeds were the only part of the ferny plant (the ferny form of asparagus) considered useful in medieval times (they considered the seeds to be medicinal). They cut away the feathery leaves and, as far as I know, didn't use them for anything. They only occasionally mention the roots. Apparently the roots weren't valued as much as the seeds.
The spiky part, which we are familiar with as asparagus spears, comes up first, before the ferny part (the leafy fronds are not attached to the spikes if they are cut early for food), so I wasn't addressing the food or medicinal value of the spikes because the VMS drawing looks like the asparagus fern form (which is the later growth that has branches, flowers, and berries).
You have to choose. You can't harvest spikes and berries from the same shoot. If you cut the spike for food, no berries. If you let the spike bush out into leaves and berries, you can't eat the spike. Both male and female plants have spikes and leaves, but only the female has berries.
RE: f34v - -JKP- - 09-08-2017
Here are some pics of the long stringy roots of the asparagus plant. You can see how the shape and the proximity of male-female plants might inspire a drawing like the VMS:
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RE: f34v - Oocephalus - 15-08-2017
I finally looked up German plant names referring to weasels in Marzell. Here's what I found:
Gelber Wiesel: Agrostis alba. I suspect the name is actually derived from Wiese (meadow) here.
Witt Wäselken (Low German for little white weasel): Draba verna. Named for the color of the flowers.
Wieselblume: Myosotis. The name is from Bohemia, where it was believed that, in years when few of these flowers grew, there were also few weasels and therefore more mice.
Wisselbeere, Wisselbaum: Prunus avium var. silvestris. A folk-etymological reinterpretation of "Weichsel" (a type of cherry).
Wieselblut: Verbena officinalis. A literal translation of a Greek name given by Dioscorides. It is mentioned that Dioscorides also gave the same name for a kind of fern.
In none of these cases there seems to be any resemblance to f34v, unless the things on the branches are ripe and unripe cherries, but then the flowers don't fit.
RE: f34v - Anton - 16-08-2019
I was thinking about different colours of the "coins" and what they do mean. They do not appear to be at random. Notice that two "coins" to the left have been pre-painted with red, but then their colour was changed to green. So, either the number of "coins" in each colour set matters (21 green, 8 red), or the exact position or order matters.
An obvious assumption is that colouring is used to differentiate the face value (like dollar/dime).
RE: f34v - bi3mw - 14-02-2020
(07-08-2017, 11:51 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... Lunaria (Sherwood), ...Sherwood's identification seems the most conclusive of all to me.
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It should be noted that Lunaria annua occasionally shows brownish leaves in the late growth stage.
RE: f34v - -JKP- - 14-02-2020
bi3mw Wrote:[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]The identification of Sherwood seems the most conclusive of all.[/font]
Except for the fact that the drawing has round parts, this plant does not remind me of Lunaria.
Notice the little lines along the edges of the round things. It either gives them depth or it represents an opening (or something else). Why would the illustrator go to so much trouble to add something so time-consuming and complex that is so unlike Lunaria? Also, Lunaria is a very upright plant. It doesn't grow sideways like some plants (e.g., asparagus). Also, Lunaria, doesn't have a hirsute stem base. Some plants do, like ferns and nard.
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]Koen, did you notice that the animal-root on the left has something that looks like legs and a tail, while the one on the right doesn't look as much like legs, it's almost more like the feathers of a chicken tail? It's like it's two different animals...[/font]
[font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]I was wondering about this because there are some alchemical drawings that show interaction between a lion and a gryphon, and now I'm wondering if there's a connection between the root and alchemical symbolism.[/font]
RE: f34v - bi3mw - 14-02-2020
(14-02-2020, 06:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Also, Lunaria is a very upright plant. It doesn't grow sideways like some plants.That is indeed a good point. I think the illustrator has seen several lunarias, even in a row. This could give the impression of "width" on a single plant.
But it could also be that the author drew after a description. Then such an error is quite conceivable.
RE: f34v - -JKP- - 14-02-2020
bi3, I just thought of one reason someone might draw lunaria with funny fat circles... in alchemy there is a lunaria plant (moons) and also a sun plant, usually on the other side of the folio so they flank the action in the middle with the hermaphrodite. These are usually drawn in a sort of 3d-ish way, so maybe that's one possibility. And since it's the VMS, maybe sun and moon would be combined.
Also, the root could be the hermaphrodite, since it is described as merging.
There are quite a few different ways the hermaphrodite is shown entwined, merging, or merged (as in the Harlequin-colored hermaphrodite). But here is one that is a little different, with a lot of twining vine (or rope) to get the idea across:
![[Image: 5b49f939f1cf1a0d3287266ff0bdb0eb.jpg]](https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/5b/49/f9/5b49f939f1cf1a0d3287266ff0bdb0eb.jpg)
RE: f34v - bi3mw - 14-02-2020
(14-02-2020, 07:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.in alchemy there is a lunaria plant (moons) and also a sun plant, usually on the other side of the folioYou mean this "standard" representation ?
![[Image: sun_and_moon.png]](https://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/mwille2/VMS/sun_and_moon.png)
Cambridge, Corpus Christi College, MS 395: Iohannes de Rupescissa OFM, de consideratione quintae essentiae, ca. 1400 - 1499, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: f34v - Koen G - 14-02-2020
(14-02-2020, 06:22 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Koen, did you notice that the animal-root on the left has something that looks like legs and a tail, while the one on the right doesn't look as much like legs, it's almost more like the feathers of a chicken tail? It's like it's two different animals...
Yeah, the animals are tricky. I am very happy that at least this root is clearly symbolic, so there can be no discussion about pareidolia...
When I was thinking about this plant before, several people had been likening these animals to lions, and for some reason this stuck in my mind even though they don't look like lions at all.
The one on the right is almost certainly a horse (or related animal). The way the front legs bend, the curve in the belly, the shape of the tail, the neck... Only the hind legs are a bit unclear, but if this is the same one who did the bulls in the Zodiac section...
The left animal is harder. I am not sure whether the differences are intentional or just because they wanted to fill the horizontal space. It still appears to have 4 legs but I agree they look less convincing. Still I see similar shapes, and the hind legs bend correctly for a horse.
I am not up to date on medieval stallion stereotypes, but nowadays they are synonymous with virility, which may explain (to some extent) the fifth limbs...