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+--- Thread: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" (/thread-2036.html)
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - Fabrizio Salani - 15-09-2017
(05-08-2017, 06:05 PM)voynichbombe Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I can't find the thread atm which mentions one or two "copied pages" (sometimes assumed to be the one's Kircher received) aquired by an italian copyshop owner, who subsequently got them tested and dated contemporarily.
While watching the "Austrian Documentary" for the nth time (I always find something new that bugs me), I clearly saw a recording of someone doing a copy. Who knows what happened with the film props after production stop?
This is just a thought.. as said I'm out of time to locate the thread, see which folios appeared on that italian market, and compare them to the pages being copied in the video.
Anyways I couln't help a slight chuckle at Rene Zandbergen interviewing Richard Santa Coloma.
That documentary may have moved a lot, but sometimes "good intention" is the opposite of "good".
Hi Voynichbombe,
[font=Arial, sans-serif]just a reply at your question about the old (not modern !) copy of a page of the Voynich I have found here in Italy (precisely in the local antiquarian market in Narni - TR). The research on the leaf of parchment, analized by the physics and chemistry laboratoires of the Modena and Reggio Emilia University (UNIMORE) by the same professors with the same procedures used to analize the Bible of Borso D'Este the most beautifull italian manuscript of XVth century (and probably of the world), have revealed (with Raman spectroscopy) that the ink used for the text and the shape of the plant is camping ink with iron added to stabilize the color and the oxidation of that ink is completly natural and is, at least,100 years old. The colours are water based and all over the parchment is present the blue overseas with lapis lazuli and a very little presence of titanium (probably a repainting not over the 1940 as read by the Raman spectrum of the red and the green) or a simply contamination by other documents. My opinion is that the leaf of parchment is the last page realized (or made to draw) by Georg Baresch in late 1637 in Prague and sent in Italy to Athanasius Kircher, with the story that all we know. Obviously this is mine opinion (and not only mine) based on the storical data we know: partial copy of the manuscript, only the botanical section mailed to a priest as Kircher, the shape of a "libellum" a little book as described in the answer letter by Kircher to Baresch found by Czech historian Josef Smolka and so on. Is without any doubt, the last page of the Baresch's copy ? NO, but is not a modern copy this is indubitably sure. I remain at your disposal for any questions you have about the parchment I have found. All the best. Fabrizio Salani[/font]
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - davidjackson - 15-09-2017
Hi Fabrizio and welcome to the forums!
Do I understand that you own or found this copy? If so, what was the history of the discovery?
And do you have a copy of the report you mention? It would be fascinating to read it.
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - Fabrizio Salani - 15-09-2017
Hi David,
I am known as a treasures searcher (is my 18 years old hobby). So, one of my contacts in Italy at Narni (TR) told me in April 2013 that in the city antiquarian market he has found some old documents in paper and parchment of XVII and XVIII th centuries (notarial acts, ecclesiastical, transfer of ownership, marriage records, inheritance; I assume part of the collection of a collector of ancient documents) so he send the images to me. I was smitten by a parchment with a draw similar to a page of Voynich manuscript. I told to him my intention to buy only the mentioned parchment and he sell it to me.
This is the simple story of the discovery of the parchment.
About the Logwood (camping) ink (Haematoxylon Campechianum) with iron added.
When the Raman spectre of the black ink revealed the old ink used, we was very surprised since this ink was used usually from the XVIII th century, but the last chemical researches made by University of Bologna, revealed that this ink was used in Europe since XVII th century, especially for watercolors (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) with iron added to stabilize the ink used since 1525 because it was imported in Europe by Spain conquistadores from Central America.
Regarding the red seal in the verso of the parchment.
In 2013 I have consigned the photos of the seal to the Italian Archive of Biella (the town where I work and live) and immediately they told me that this is an "ad personam" seal used to close a letter or a package and not used as a postal seal or an association seal. The remaining of a second seal under the first one, very probably is a seal like the roman letters called "litterae clause" a seal "to loose" when someone opened the letter. Under the seal "AG" there is a remaining of a thick paper with animal glue, probably used to close the letter as a package.
These are the results of the Raman and XRF spectroscopy researches.
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - davidjackson - 15-09-2017
This is fascinating, thank you for sharing it.
Regarding the seal, so the sheet was originally sealed to protect its contents?
Have you ever attempted to trace the seal or doesn't enough of the impression survive to give an indication of the owner?
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - davidjackson - 15-09-2017
Also, my Italian is a bit rusty, but doesn't the report suggest it is Logwood ink? That was popular in the 18/19 century, if memory serves me correctly.
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - -JKP- - 15-09-2017
Fabrizio, absolutely fascinating. Thank you for taking the time to post about this in depth. The story of your discovery would make a good video interview, actually.
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - -JKP- - 15-09-2017
I find it interesting that the artist didn't try to perfectly duplicate the Voynich script.
If this were intended for Kircher (to see if he could decipher it), one would think a more exact copy of the text would be important. The plant drawing is also in a completely different drawing style from the original
So, it leaves me wondering... was it just to give the recipient a general idea of how the VMS looked? Was the artist not aware of the importance of copying it as exactly as possible? Did the artist have a limited time in which to see the page? Was the artist not skilled enough to make an exact replica?
The fact that there's a seal on it is certainly a valuable clue. The closer to present times we get, the less likely there is to be a seal.
There are people who study these seals in depth. Now that you've posted an image of it, perhaps there's someone out there who might recognize it from the trace of a pattern that is left. Seal experts can sometimes do that if they have similar ones in their collections. Even if they can't identify a specific seal, sometimes they can figure out where a certain kind of design (or wax) was used.
And how did it end up in the antiquarian market? What was the origin of the other documents it was with? If it was in Kircher's hands, did parts of his estate get dispersed far and wide?
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - Koen G - 15-09-2017
Whoever made this did not have the intention to produce a faithful copy. They even added correct parallel hatching to the stem, meaning that they were somewhat trained in drawing techniques. All of it has a too modern view to me.
It's either post-Wilfrid Voynich, in which case its value to us is likely limited.
Or it might sit somewhere between Kircher and Voynich, which would make it much more interesting.
The first option feels more likely though...
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - davidjackson - 15-09-2017
I don't know, Koen. They have been careful to represent the elements of the plant they consider important for identification - the shape of the leaves, the flowers, even the number of stamens within the flowers. They've added another leaf, but it's in the same shape and form as the other two, and it's probably just so as not to leave a big blank space to the left.
Although I don't know why they've added the veins.
But they've considered the roots irrelevant - they've recreated the roots as they think roots should be. Which indicates they thought only the above ground part of the plant was useful.
Maybe they recognised the plant and drew it to life?
So they've tried to recreate the plant, but only concentrated on the useful bits, and despite using their own artistic tradition to draw it, have tried to be faithful to the original.
And the text is a pretty good copy, actually. If it were, say, Cyrillic, done by a non-native speaker, then I reckon a Cyrillic speaker would recognise and understand it. The text gets better towards the end as the scribe gains practice.
But the artistic style looks modern to me too. Possibly late 18th century, at a pinch.
I'm also looking at the parchment. It seems to be trimmed top, bottom and right, but is irregular on the left -as if it were cut out of a book. Are the dimensions the same as the codex? It could be some prepared parchment that was cut down to fit.
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - -JKP- - 15-09-2017
That form of hatching started to show up in the very late 15th century and early 16th century. It wasn't common, but it was starting to emerge.
I think it's possible it's from the 17th or 18th centuries. Drawing styles had changed dramatically a century after the VMS was made and many of them have a fairly contemporary look.
But I am puzzled as to why the person drawing it didn't try to represent it more exactly. Perhaps it was a way of saying, okay, this is generally how it looks, can you make anything of it? do you recognize it? do you think you can decode it? before taking a more significant step (like handing over more of the manuscript). Like a trial run?