+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Voynich Talk (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-6.html)
+--- Thread: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" (/thread-2036.html)
A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - voynichbombe - 05-08-2017
I can't find the thread atm which mentions one or two "copied pages" (sometimes assumed to be the one's Kircher received) aquired by an italian copyshop owner, who subsequently got them tested and dated contemporarily.
While watching the "Austrian Documentary" for the nth time (I always find something new that bugs me), I clearly saw a recording of someone doing a copy. Who knows what happened with the film props after production stop?
This is just a thought.. as said I'm out of time to locate the thread, see which folios appeared on that italian market, and compare them to the pages being copied in the video.
Anyways I couln't help a slight chuckle at Rene Zandbergen interviewing Richard Santa Coloma.
That documentary may have moved a lot, but sometimes "good intention" is the opposite of "good".
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - ReneZ - 06-08-2017
@voynichbombe,
that would be You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. .
All modern copies that were made during the filming of the documentary were accurate copies of the Voynich MS pages whereas the copy of Fabrizio Salani has a completely different root compared to the original.
I add some pictures I took (reduced size).
In 2009 it was the first time (of three times till now) that I met Rich, and he had not yet developed his 'Voynich faked it' theory.
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - VViews - 06-08-2017
Hi ReneZ,
thanks for posting these pics.
The first one made me wonder whether the artist in the photo had any insights to offer after she was done. It is such meticulous work!
Perhaps going through the motions of actually physically repeating the gestures made by the Voynich artist, especially in the 9 rosette foldout, could potentially give her a unique perspective on the mind/body/abilities/constraints of the original artist or an aspect of the execution that we viewers haven't picked up on?
Has she made any comments?
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - ReneZ - 06-08-2017
Hello VViews,
she's a professional graphics designer, and the team made the effort of using original ink and paint compositions.
I very specifically remember that she considered the drawings intricate but not excessively so.
The parchment was of course modern, but I don't know from which animal, and at the time this was not known
for the Voynich MS anyway.
Applying the inks was completely straightforward.
You can see it happening in the documentary when writing the text. The scribe (whose name cannot be spoken ;-) ) is writing in real time using the same materials.
What did not work *at all* was applying the paint. It almost became a crisis. First attempts just left pools of liquid that would not dry and would move uncontrollably over the entire page (e.g. for the big leaf of the 'water lily'). There were several attempts (which is not unusual in film-making) and I believe that the end result involved some trickery, esp. pretending it was finished, but it was still completely wet.
It was evident that this was much more difficult than anticipated, and the right formula had not been found.
I lost contact with her immediately after the project finished.
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - davidjackson - 06-08-2017
In the Spanish web, there are a number of pseudo-Voynich images that keep cropping up, sometimes in quite innocent articles about the manuscript. Usually through the magic of copy and paste on blogs.
Many years ago I tried to track down the origin of these files, and I remember I found a south American origin for them, although I never found the artist who had created them.
If he has tried to recreate his imagery upon vellum, then that is a possible origin for the Italian document.
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - Helmut Winkler - 06-08-2017
(06-08-2017, 10:58 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What did not work *at all* was applying the paint. It almost became a crisis.
Judging by what I could see in the documentary they were using a colour formula suitable for paper but not for parchment, comes very likely from taking a term like 'wash' literally
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - voynichbombe - 27-08-2017
Sorry for the lag.
Thank you for your insights, @ReneZ! Too bad you lost contact with the very talented artist.
A while ago I had the idea to put up a "copy one folio" contest, to get close to some of the insights @VViews is looking for. I have some ideas, especially about stronger inked "o's", but of course it would need to be tested, not only once. At the moment to conduct something like this is, alas, out of my might.
To be honest, from my experience, the sheets in the picture do not look like parchment nor vellum at all, but more like "elephant paper", a modern "vegan" replacement. You will never get parchment that uniform and even, not even in the best quality.
Parchment always need to be treated before one can write on it, as I learned. One needs chalk, or cotton, either/or.
It is NOT AT ALL easy, especially if one want's to pick up some speed.
I wonder if you would interview Richard, again, today..
As said, I think the Austrian documentary may have moved a lot, but it also did some bad, like the "moving images" five minutes in. That was a trick played by the film makers, as Rich told me. It is an impossibility, besides if you assume slightly "modern means".
I think it would be suitable to discuss some of the myths created by this documentary.
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - ReneZ - 27-08-2017
Being involved in the making of this documentary was a fascinating experience.
The producers were extremely motivated people who never stopped having new ideas.
Of course, Voynich-wise, I tried to steer them a bit (especially away from Paracelsus and
Thurneisser, their target heroes), but that was very difficult. Anyway, the carbon dating
result had the desired effect of moving them into the right century :-)
TV is really meant for the masses, and not for a select audience. That's why the select
audience of 'people who are already very familiar with the MS' inevitably find issues with
the result.
For me, this rotating zodiac page was 'Spielerei' (how do you say that in English?) and
pretty harmless.
It's amazing that they managed to get the radio-carbon dating and other tests done, and
they were also the ones finding the Tepenec signature in the Aristotle book (the one that
really looks very much like the one in the Voynich MS).
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - voynichbombe - 28-08-2017
Ironically, it was the shenanigans of the rotating zodiac pages that finally pulled me over to the "dark side", to the "Voynich Badlands" as recently termed, because I knew how animations need a dark frame for the eye to be able to produce an afterimage and the brain to be able to produce the illusion of continuous motion.. hence the need for a viewing apparatus like a zoetrope or a praxinoscope, which are certainly out of time. Richard was of great help, or the reverse, however you wish
RE: A possible source for the "modern italian copy" - ReneZ - 28-08-2017
The world of Voynich theories isn't nearly as simple as the universe depicted in 'Star Wars'
.There are several "dark sides".
In any case, the animation doesn't really work, if you were to ask me.