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+--- Thread: Sagittarius (/thread-192.html)
RE: Sagittarius - R. Sale - 17-12-2022
The hat investigation remains unresolved. The VMs Sagittarius' hat has a significant brim and does not lay against the forehead like a hood or a cowl would. It seems more similar to the black-hat illustration of Philip the Good in the Wiki Chaperon link. The second part of the hat investigation is the upper extension of the hat regarding its relative length. Then there is the matter of 'pull-over' versus 'wrap around'. The VMs is clearly not a 'pull-over', but other examples are more difficult to determine.
The wide brimmed hat of Philip the Good fits C-14 chronology. There's a red hat as well, IIRC. Perhaps there are other examples.
And there is the issue of color, because the VMs hat is 'white'. Ambiguously 'white' because it is unpainted, while the archer's clothes a painted blue. Yet it could also be seriously 'white' because no other option would reference "le chaperon blanc" of the Cabochien revolt. Surely such a historical reference would still be valid during the latter part of the C-14 dating.
RE: Sagittarius - ReneZ - 18-12-2022
For lack of more specific information, I would consider the hat to be part of the clothing.
RE: Sagittarius - Gioynich - 18-12-2022
One more that I haven't seen before. From Vienna, Austrian National Library (ÖNB), Cod. 5318
RE: Sagittarius - Koen G - 18-12-2022
So the first one (post #11) is wearing the headgear as it was originally intended, like a "hood". This was the way it had been done before the 15th century.
The second image is complicated. My (inexpert) assessment is that they fused the regular cap (like the other figures in this MS wear) with the cape that centaur Sagittarius often wears. This kind of thing often happened in astronomical traditions, because the ancient examples were copied over and over again. For examples of Sagittarius with cape, see the Warburg Institute: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Edit: It might also simply be an Eastern influence, which would not be unusual in constellation imagery. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Of course the result is still that this artist drew a Sagittarius with a flaring tail on his cap. But I think the background might be different than that of the VM archer.
RE: Sagittarius - Koen G - 18-12-2022
I've been looking at some more examples in the Warburg database. So far my impression is that when Sagittarius gets a hat, it is one of a different kind. Sometimes a pointy hat like the type we associate with Robin Hood. Or something more elaborate and "exoticizing". Or just a simple cap.
This may be a further indication that the VM figures are not taken from a traditional Zodiac cycle. Here is one example of a "Sagittarian", i.e. a person hunting under the influence of Jupiter and Sagittarius:
This is from a German woodcut (1470) after Netherlandish example. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
The Sagittarius himself (next to Jupiter) is wearing a simple cap, but the hunter below is wearing a chaperon in the typical Burgundian style. Note that while this garment and the VM archer's "sack hat" are technically both chaperons, their style is different.
The point is though, that the VM archer's weapon, pose and outfit are more in line with "person from a hunting scene" than "Sagittarius". By "pose" I mean that the other crossbow Sagittarii usually take aim, as if they are about to shoot (one even right at the viewer) while the VM archer appears hardly aware of his weapon.
RE: Sagittarius - R. Sale - 18-12-2022
As I see the archer's hat above and in the VMs, there is a significant brim. This would appear to match the 'Burgundian' style of chaperon. There would appear to be a fair variety of hat styles encompassed by the term "chaperon" during the first half of the 1400s, given that various hoods and cowls are also included.
In the Cabochien revolt, those who wore the white chaperon are noted as 'the butchers and skinners'. Being lower class and given the conditions of these professions, it seems more likely they wound have favored hoods and cowls over something that dangled and got in the way.
What has the VMs artist done, if 'le chaperon blanc' really was a hood originally? The VMs artist has done just the opposite. Has gone as far away from the 'hood-style' representation of a chaperon as possible, but still remains *inside* the definition of a chaperon. The VMs representation may look 'all wrong', but once it is named in C-14 relevant terminology, then its significance cannot be missed by those who were/are familiar with the relevant historical events. Paris of 1413 could be recent history in the C-14 timeframe, not lost in historical trivia.
This sort of trickery, this manipulation of appearance, shows up in other VMs representations from Melusine to White Aries. In the center of the VMs cosmos, where the historical sources (BNF Fr. 565 & Harley 334) are pictorial images, the VMs has gone literary. VMs has switched from pictures to words. This is a code shift. The visual differences could not be more extreme, but the structure is the same. The VMs has polygonal stars compared to asterisk stars - etc. It's a trick! Appearance is pushed to the edge of contradiction, but not really. Finding the relevant name, despite the visual ambiguity and the historical obscurity, helps to define the VMs reality, (cloud band, Melusine, 'le chaperon blanc', etc.)
RE: Sagittarius - nablator - 18-12-2022
(18-12-2022, 08:48 PM)R. Sale Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.What has the VMs artist done, if 'le chaperon blanc' really was a hood originally?It was a hood ("capuche") originally, as in the Little Red Riding Hood story.
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RE: Sagittarius - Aga Tentakulus - 18-12-2022
I wondered who the person on the bust was.
Quickly found.
It tells me that the chaperone was certainly also worn in Italy.
And a thank to Nablator
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RE: Sagittarius - R. Sale - 19-12-2022
Good information, however what it appears to show is the reality of a confused situation.
Here is a representation (c.1415) of John the Fearless, Duke of Burgundy from 1404 to 1419.
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His hat is not a Burgundian chaperon, and <sticking my neck out here> *may* not be a chaperon at all. But that's another problem.
Perhaps the Burgundian chaperon postdates this image.
RE: Sagittarius - Koen G - 19-12-2022
It's not like every man was forced to wear exclusively chaperons all of a sudden
