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+--- Thread: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! (/thread-1879.html)
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - -JKP- - 06-05-2017
Stellar, I hope you realize if you throw random words into Google translate that the software will do its best to make some grammatical sense of it even if there isn't any. In other words, it's not just translating words, it's making "best guesses" as to what you MIGHT mean, so just because parts of it SEEM to make sense doesn't mean the original text says anything.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 06-05-2017
(06-05-2017, 05:00 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stellar, I hope you realize if you throw random words into Google translate that the software will do its best to make some grammatical sense of it even if there isn't any. In other words, it's not just translating words, it's making "best guesses" as to what you MIGHT mean, so just because parts of it SEEM to make sense doesn't mean the original text says anything.
Not using google translate for this experiment.
And your wrong not just part of it makes sense but all of it!
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 06-05-2017
(05-05-2017, 01:43 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Tom, what you created looks very plausible. Perhaps you could expand the possibilities for the ring a bit, let's say to 16 letters each?
Over and autum.
David sorry, I should have explained more why I can't change the cipher to a 1-1 basis, but I'm not sure if your implying this and I know I asked for help and I should have not been so vague on my answer. If I line up every glyph around the ring with not many glyph's representing a letter? Does that new arrangement make it possible for an easy break of the VMS cipher. Also why should I use Autem with a 16 shift?
I want to remind everyone this is a running a experiment and a work in progress the goal is to make sense of at least 3 folios and see if the vords are transferable so that it can be concise or make sense across the VMS.
l admit the cipher looks odd but it does lock up the VMS!
@Koen and Jkp
I believe I'm on to something here and a team effort is what cracking the VMS is all about. I think credit for a single person's idea is silly if we can crack it then it not just us who cracked or the Russians or any single group or person its the whole VMS community! We all realize its trial and error so please everyone why not bring new ideas to this possibility instead of negativity or sarcasm. If the VMS gets cracked in this fashion what I'm saying it's just as much Alberti's credit or Jkp' if we all work together we share in the credit. Think about we all have been working together, but our ego's are getting in the way!
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - -JKP- - 06-05-2017
(06-05-2017, 04:48 PM)coded Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
I want to remind everyone this is a running a experiment and a work in progress the goal is to make sense of at least 3 folios and see if the vords are transferable so that it can be concise or make sense across the VMS.
...
Then you'll have to ask someone who knows Latin to give an opinion on it, rather than using an online translation program, because online translation program software will attempt to turn it into a readable, grammatical translation, even if the words you feed into it are nonsense.
You also have a responsibility to tell them YOU are choosing the Latin words out of various letters that are assigned to each Voynich glyph so they understand that you could just as easily be creating French or Arabic or Hawaiian words with the same method.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - -JKP- - 06-05-2017
(06-05-2017, 04:48 PM)coded Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@Koen and Jkp
I believe I'm on to something here and a team effort is what cracking the VMS is all about. I think credit for a single person's idea is silly if we can crack it then it not just us who cracked or the Russians or any single group or person its the whole VMS community! We all realize its trial and error so please everyone why not bring new ideas to this possibility instead of negativity or sarcasm. If the VMS gets cracked in this fashion what I'm saying it's just as much Alberti's credit or Jkp' if we all work together we share in the credit. Think about we all have been working together, but our ego's are getting in the way!
If you think I and others are approaching this by "trial and error" you are greatly mistaken. There are rational, methodical ways of studying how the text is constructed.
Also, if someone were to figure out, in a unique way, how to decipher the text before I personally figured it out, even though I contribute regularly to the forum, I would NOT expect to share in their credit unless I materially contributed to the way in which they solved it.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Koen G - 06-05-2017
Stellar, the problem with this cipher is exactly the same as with your previous one. If you let a thousand people solve it, you will get a thousand different results. But instead of explaining it once again, I'll tell you how to experience it.
Your proposal is built on the following premises:
- The VM is written in encoded Latin
- It is an Alberti cipher
- It is not a one-way cipher, which means that the recipient should be able to retrieve the encoded message unambiguously.
If your proposed solution is correct, or has any merit to it whatsoever, you should be able to complete the following challenge:
- Print You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Make a physical version of your cipher disk - this should be easy with paper, I assume.
- Step away from all electronic devices, use no internet, apps or other tools that would have been unavailable to a 15th century recipient.
- Using pen, paper, your cipher disk and your proposed method, decipher the page.
- Time how long this takes you.
- Emerge from the woods victorious, with the solution to the Voynich and the proof of your method in your hands.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 06-05-2017
This is a long shot and a idea regarding You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and the interpretation of a Duke, commander, general with the Latin word (praefecti). I did some research on the first word [font=EVA Hand 1]f_a_ch_y_s of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and I think the word is (Bella) for war. So I'm thinking many ciphers were created for strategic uses in battle campaigns that messengers would carry and maybe the cipher was just originally in Latin not in voynich until a duke decided to use the cipher as memoir in VMS using the same cipher but inter changed the letters to VMS symbols.[/font]
I believe [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ercole I, Duke d'Este used [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Leon Battista Alberti cipher in his campaigns and Ercole could be a possible candidate of the Author of the VMS yet this is deep speculation for now. The battle of Molinella is at the same time of the cipher's invention.[/font][/font]
Battle of Molinella
[font=sans-serif]The Battle of Riccardina or Battle of Molinella, fought on July 25, 1467, in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., was one of the most important battles of the 15th century in Italy.[/font]
- On the one side were 14,000 infantry and cavalry led by You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in theory fighting for Venice (but Colleoni had his personal agenda), in coalition with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., Marquis of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (represented by his half-brother You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) and the Lords of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and some renegade families of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
- On the other side was an army of 13,000 soldiers in the service of Florence, allied with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (ruler of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.), King You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (ruler of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). The army was led by a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Leonello d'Este
1407-1450
He succeeded his father Nicolò III upon the latter's death.
A prince enlightened in politics, refined and an art lover, he started up a distinguished group of humanists, whose names include maestro Guarino da Verona, Angelo Decembrio and Leon Battista Alberti.
In 1435 he married Margherita Gonzaga.
In 1444 he married Maria of Aragon.
Borso d'Este
He succeeded his brother Leonello. He was a man of action, an able soldier, ambitious and a shrewd statesman. In 1471 he earned the title of Duke for his family. He never stopped working to sustain the economy above all through land reclamation work on the Ferrarese territory, which was for the most part swampy and unproductive. He supported the University and the arts are the realisation of the famous pictorial cycle of the months in the Delizia di Schifanoia and that of the extraordinary illuminated work known as Borso's Bible.
Ercole I, Duke d'Este
Son of Nicolò III and Ricciarda da Saluzzo, he spent time at the Aragonese court of Naples, from 1445 to 1460, where he received a satisfactory military and chivalric education. In 1473 he married Eleonora of Aragon with whom he had three children: Alfonso, the famous Isabella and Beatrice. A shrewd matrimonial policy wove important alliances for the Estense court, Alfonso firstly married Anna Sforza and when he was left a widower, Lucrezia Borgia, the daughter of Pope Alexander VI, Isabella was married to Francesco. Gonzaga, Marquis of Mantua and Beatrice was married to Ludovico Sforza known as il Moro. During his reign, Ercole found himself fighting the Venetians (1482-1484) putting up resistance to their southerly expansion. The war came to an end with the peace treaty of Bagnolo (1484) which ratified the the house of Este's loss of the Polesine. It was his far-sightedness which gave us the vast extension of the city walls, the so-called Addizione Erculea, which, commissioned to the great architect Biagio Rossetti, radically changed the appearance of the city. In a few years, in which construction sites for the building of city walls, palaces, roads, squares and convents, the city doubled in size and from a small medieval town arose a Renaissance town-planning gem. The castle, already the residence of the Duke's family, now found itself at the centre of the city, a massive reference point visible from all points of the urban fabric, and the changes that would lead it to function almost exclusively as a court residence were started. Ercole, an enthusiast of sacred and polyphonic music, swept in a new era in Ferrarese music, competing with the most important courts: Naples, Milan and, more than anywhere else, the Pontificate to attract the best composers and musicians. As well as live music, he had an interest for the theatre. In fact, he introduced works with profane themes and with impressive scenery that earned him consensus among his subjects and men of culture. Ercole I died in 1505, but not without having designated his successor, his son Alfonso.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - R. Sale - 06-05-2017
If your method actually works, then provide a demonstration. Koen has made this suggestion above. However, rather than taking a whole page running it through the process, and then coming back to the forum with your finished product, I have something a bit different to suggest. Take a single line. I suggest one of the circular band of text that contains a patterned marker. My choice would be the outer band of VMs You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. = White Aries.
From the marker clockwise it reads: olkeeody okody okchedy oky eey ........
Take the first vord and show in detail how to make sense of it.
As I see it EVA 'o' appears next to a number of letters in the outer ring of the cipher disk.
A = z; B = a; E = h; G = m; I = l; L = c; M = y; N = &; R = f; S = s; T = v; U = o
[If I haven't mistranscribed.]
Then what???
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - -JKP- - 06-05-2017
If Stellar's cipher works, he would be able to decipher a paragraph on one of the pages without pictures.
Anyway, as I said above, that's not Latin. It's words SELECTIVELY chosen by Stellar because they are or seem to be Latin.
In other words, he's using the same method he used with gematria, CHOOSING what he thinks it's supposed to say (in terms of selecting from a list of words) rather than developing a method to actually decipher it.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 06-05-2017
(06-05-2017, 07:30 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stellar, the problem with this cipher is exactly the same as with your previous one. If you let a thousand people solve it, you will get a thousand different results. But instead of explaining it once again, I'll tell you how to experience it.
Your proposal is built on the following premises:
The third part is crucial, since the definition of a one-way cipher implies that it cannot be deciphered.
- The VM is written in encoded Latin
- It is an Alberti cipher
- It is not a one-way cipher, which means that the recipient should be able to retrieve the encoded message unambiguously.
If your proposed solution is correct, or has any merit to it whatsoever, you should be able to complete the following challenge:
I promise you that it will not work, but feel free to prove me wrong.
- Print You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
- Make a physical version of your cipher disk - this should be easy with paper, I assume.
- Step away from all electronic devices, use no internet, apps or other tools that would have been unavailable to a 15th century recipient.
- Using pen, paper, your cipher disk and your proposed method, decipher the page.
- Time how long this takes you.
- Emerge from the woods victorious, with the solution to the Voynich and the proof of your method in your hands.
Quote:@Koen It is not a one-way cipher, which means that the recipient should be able to retrieve the encoded message unambiguously.
I see what your saying, but maybe your we are both right and wrong. What I mean is if you read my other bottom post. Duke Ercole could have been privy to the Alberti cipher yet used it in Latin without the VMS glyphs for messengers which were delivered in cipher text for strategic use. Of course both user and recipients had the cipher disks with the shift and same letters around the disk. All that was need for the message delivered was in cipher text.
Later on Ercole wrote a memoir and changed it to VMS like I have done on the disk and the Latin words I'm using are high frequency or low frequency which match. Perhaps Ercole did not care to ever read his autobiography. All speculation for now and I know you guys don't like it but traditional methods have failed and my out the box approach may prove correct.