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+--- Thread: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! (/thread-1879.html)
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Koen G - 04-05-2017
Stellar it's always the same, this is once again an impossible one-way cipher. You take a cipher method, then change it until it allows you to read what you want, and then proclaim that you have solved the Voynich. How many times have you solved it already this last year?
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 04-05-2017
(04-05-2017, 10:06 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Stellar it's always the same, this is once again an impossible one-way cipher. You take a cipher method, then change it until it allows you to read what you want, and then proclaim that you have solved the Voynich. How many times have you solved it already this last year?
Its not a one way cipher when all the cipher keys are different yet form Latin words. I believe you have not researched enough to see how complex this cipher really is. I could send you all the encoded words or encrypted words with with the shift, increment and length and you would find that all the Latin words decode perfectly. Of course I would have to make you privy to the two rings as well. Sorry but you are wrong but right about the gematria cipher, it was a one way cipher; but you are gravely mistaken here about this new cipher, unless you can come up with a logical solution to show me I am wrong!
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 04-05-2017
Quote:Petasites frigidus, the Arctic sweet coltsfootYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or Arctic butterbur, is a species of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. native to Arctic to cool temperate regions of the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. in northern You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., northern You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and northern You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petasites_frigidus#cite_note-PLANTS-2][/url]
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![[Image: frigidus.png]](https://voynichalberticipher.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/frigidus.png)
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - nickpelling - 04-05-2017
(04-05-2017, 03:33 PM)coded Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(04-05-2017, 01:52 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An Alberti cipher is one of the things we can be sure Voynichese is not. In fact, the two are close to opposites in all useful senses.
Hi Nick,
Are you suggesting this statement, because of the carbon dating? This cipher does in fact eliminate a frequency analysis which would indicate this mechanism. Why are they opposites can you explain the vague statement?
Using a cipher disk to encipher a plaintext will inevitably produce ciphertext where (a) the letter frequencies are very much the same as each other ("flat"), and (b) where there are no obvious letter-to-letter structures ("unstructured"). Voynichese, by way of comparison, is not flat at all and is also highly structured (and in many different and unexpected ways).
So... no. I'm making this simple and direct statement (a) because it's true, and (b) because you're wasting everyone's time here by posting these claims here.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 05-05-2017
(04-05-2017, 11:59 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Nick there is no time like now(04-05-2017, 03:33 PM)coded Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(04-05-2017, 01:52 PM)nickpelling Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.An Alberti cipher is one of the things we can be sure Voynichese is not. In fact, the two are close to opposites in all useful senses.
Hi Nick,
Are you suggesting this statement, because of the carbon dating? This cipher does in fact eliminate a frequency analysis which would indicate this mechanism. Why are they opposites can you explain the vague statement?
Using a cipher disk to encipher a plaintext will inevitably produce ciphertext where (a) the letter frequencies are very much the same as each other ("flat"), and (b) where there are no obvious letter-to-letter structures ("unstructured"). Voynichese, by way of comparison, is not flat at all and is also highly structured (and in many different and unexpected ways).
So... no. I'm making this simple and direct statement (a) because it's true, and (b) because you're wasting everyone's time here by posting these claims here.
I agree to disagree with your comment about the cipher encryption for it is highly random. What's intriguing about it is how the VMS glyphs are arranged. It allows for some vords that are the same, to have different latin word equivalents which is hard to wrap your head around but the cipher keys (encrypted words) will always be different thus making it unstoppable, but this is a highly rare occurrence! Your going to have to analyze this cipher with a deeper pint of Guinness once all the VMS glyph's are in there proper positions. What your looking at is not flat by no means unless you can prove it, once I'm finished with it you can run a frequency analysis on it to see if it will spell out Latin words. I think not though you will have a rough go about it and it will simply be just like the VMS is perfectly. Nick you are on my dime I did the work so time is of the essence.
P.S.
Also each single word has its own encryption which makes this special, because the Author of the VMS would go about encrypting one word at a time and this is no Caesar cipher! Once a full page is decoded in Latin with proper syntax then those other words could be tried in other folios to see if they make grammatical sense. That is what I'm shooting for Mr. Pelling and one would wonder if this is it, you should be happy for me. If we get a reading of at least 3 folios we may have hit the Zenith of Mt. Everest!
Quote:Compared to previous ciphers of the time the Alberti Cipher was impossible to break without knowledge of the method. This was because the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the letters was masked and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - the only known technique for attacking ciphers at that time - was no help.
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RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - coded - 05-05-2017
Lady of the Meadow: f65r
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RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Koen G - 05-05-2017
Stellar man... in your video you show off your books, one says that the VM is in Latin, the other in Middle English and the third in Welsh, and you don't see a problem with that?
Also, the Venus Flytrap is an American plant.
There's two problems with your current cipher.
- You seem to think that a cipher being complex will make it more likely. The exact opposite is true. The Voynich is a very large text, several orders of magnitude longer than any other enciphered medieval message. Hence, the more complex a cipher becomes, the smaller the likelihood of its having been used. Given the size of the Voynich, we must almost expect that someone could read it like a plain text without needing any method of deciphering.
- By assigning most Voynich glyphs to several letters on your wheel, you turn it into a one-way cipher.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - ReneZ - 05-05-2017
Let us consider the probability that, if a known renaissance cipher method was used, neither E. or W. Friedman, nor Tiltman would have caught this.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - Davidsch - 05-05-2017
The reason I replied here is that I wanted to guide Tom gently towards a logical approach.
But, because everybody is now jumping on this (previously silent) thread, that attempt has failed.
@Nick: Based on the standard Alberti method as mentioned in literature: I agree. But mixed with other possibilities I think there are openings which I will investigate myself.
@Rene: There are amateurs that solved medieval ciphers that Tiltman or Friedman did not solve. The used methods are inside the same scope.
RE: If it feels like an Alberti Cipher it is one! - ReneZ - 05-05-2017
David,
Friedman and Tiltman looked at this one *very* intensively, in the case of W. Friedman at least four decades.
In any case, it is obvious that the Voynich MS is not the product of an Alberti wheel cipher.
This simply does not generate the word patterns from a text that doesn't have them in the first place.
Worse, like other poly-alphabetic ciphers, it causes the same plain text word type to be translated into different cipher text words, depending on where they occur in the text. It flattens out the Zipf curve.