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+--- Thread: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? (/thread-1877.html)
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - davidjackson - 24-08-2019
I'm unfamiliar with the Kaldarish tribe, but it appears they are eastern European based. How do they connect with the Basques?
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - Anton - 24-08-2019
It's a question whether those do stand for the Pleiades, to begin with. I recall we had a thread about that somewhere...
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 24-08-2019
(24-08-2019, 09:16 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm unfamiliar with the Kaldarish tribe, but it appears they are eastern European based. How do they connect with the Basques?
Some Kalderash went to the Basque Country in 1435 (during the time the VMS was written). The today's language Erromintxela is a mix of Kalderaşicko and Basque.
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - davidjackson - 25-08-2019
Erromintxela is considered to be a pidgin between Caló romani and basque, not Kaldarishi, which is a variant of Vlax Romani, the language spoken by the gypsy in Eastern Europe.
Whilst it's true that some gypsy tribes start to appear in the Basque country towards the end of the 15th century, we have no evidence as to their language.
In any case, the languages you describe didn't exist in the early 15th century, the gypsy's would have been speaking a very different and older version of romani.
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 25-08-2019
(25-08-2019, 09:48 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Erromintxela is considered to be a pidgin between Caló romani and basque, not Kaldarishi, which is a variant of Vlax Romani, the language spoken by the gypsy in Eastern Europe.
Whilst it's true that some gypsy tribes start to appear in the Basque country towards the end of the 15th century, we have no evidence as to their language.
In any case, the languages you describe didn't exist in the early 15th century, the gypsy's would have been speaking a very different and older version of romani.
Sorry, but this is wrong. Erromintxela and Calo are languages which both came from Romani. But their speakers do not understand each other.
Look at the German Wikipedia-site for "Erromintxela":
"Die Untersuchung von Muñoz und Lopez de Mungia hat bestätigt, dass Erromintxela nicht vom You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (Spanisch-Romani), gesprochen in ganz Spanien, abgeleitet ist, sondern stattdessen auf dem You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.-Romani und dem Baskischen basiert.You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. Nur wenige Spuren der Romani-Grammatikstrukturen scheinen verblieben zu sein.[url=https://de.m.wikipedia.org/#cite_note-Argia2-6] Die Sprache ist sowohl für Sprecher des Baskischen als auch des Caló unverständlich."
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - davidjackson - 25-08-2019
OK, that's not what I said.
Erromintxela is a mixture of Caló and Basque. It is a pidgin. Caló is a variant of Romani spoken in western Europe (mainly Spain and France), Kaldarishi is a variant of Romani spoken in eastern Europe. It is also the "modern" version spoken by Spanish Gypsies, heavily mixed with Castellano. Here, "Romani", is defined as a hypothetical mother language that links these variants, but of which we have no written record.
From You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
Erromintxela es el nombre que recibe el habla de los You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. que viven en el You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (buhameak o ijitoak). Es una forma criollizada o You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. del You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., con grandes influencias léxicas del You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. [...]En la actualidad se han realizado diferentes estudios You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. sobre el erromintxela, entre ellos el de la asociación merchera-vasca "Kale dor Kayiko".
For example, in modern Caló egg is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In ancient Romani it's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In Erromintxela it's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. And these three are supposed to be variants of the same language?
(PS: In Basque it's ARRAULTZ).
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - voynichbombe - 26-08-2019
that german wp-entry uses the term "basierend auf" - "based upon", which (in german) has the same meaning of "mixture". any way I find it highly unlikely that the VMS has anything to do with the VMS, because all rom (thats the correct way to say it) & sinti, though they did fantastic journeys, the languages have never left any written accounts, they had no alphabetic system, so it would to be transliterated, etc..
(25-08-2019, 08:57 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.OK, that's not what I said.
Erromintxela is a mixture of Caló and Basque. It is a pidgin. Caló is a variant of Romani spoken in western Europe (mainly Spain and France), Kaldarishi is a variant of Romani spoken in eastern Europe. It is also the "modern" version spoken by Spanish Gypsies, heavily mixed with Castellano. Here, "Romani", is defined as a hypothetical mother language that links these variants, but of which we have no written record.
From You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
Erromintxela es el nombre que recibe el habla de los You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. que viven en el You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (buhameak o ijitoak). Es una forma criollizada o You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. del You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., con grandes influencias léxicas del You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. [...]En la actualidad se han realizado diferentes estudios You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. sobre el erromintxela, entre ellos el de la asociación merchera-vasca "Kale dor Kayiko".
For example, in modern Caló egg is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In ancient Romani it's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In Erromintxela it's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. And these three are supposed to be variants of the same language?
(PS: In Basque it's ARRAULTZ).
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - voynichbombe - 26-08-2019
(26-08-2019, 11:51 AM)voynichbombe Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.that german wp-entry uses the term "basierend auf" - "based upon", which (in german) has the same meaning of "mixture". any way I find it highly unlikely that the VMS has anything to do with the romani tribes, because all rom (thats the correct way to say it) & sinti, though they did fantastic journeys, the languages have never left any written accounts, they had no alphabetic system, so it would to be transliterated, etc..
(25-08-2019, 08:57 PM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.OK, that's not what I said.
Erromintxela is a mixture of Caló and Basque. It is a pidgin. Caló is a variant of Romani spoken in western Europe (mainly Spain and France), Kaldarishi is a variant of Romani spoken in eastern Europe. It is also the "modern" version spoken by Spanish Gypsies, heavily mixed with Castellano. Here, "Romani", is defined as a hypothetical mother language that links these variants, but of which we have no written record.
From You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.:
Erromintxela es el nombre que recibe el habla de los You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. que viven en el You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (buhameak o ijitoak). Es una forma criollizada o You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. del You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., con grandes influencias léxicas del You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. [...]En la actualidad se han realizado diferentes estudios You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. sobre el erromintxela, entre ellos el de la asociación merchera-vasca "Kale dor Kayiko".
For example, in modern Caló egg is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In ancient Romani it's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In Erromintxela it's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. And these three are supposed to be variants of the same language?
(PS: In Basque it's ARRAULTZ).
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - Koen G - 26-08-2019
(26-08-2019, 11:51 AM)voynichbombe Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.all rom (thats the correct way to say it) & sinti, though they did fantastic journeys, the languages have never left any written accounts, they had no alphabetic systemThat's the same problem I encountered when looking for medieval Basque texts. It's not a given that every language we know of had a written component in medieval times, let alone a substantial amount of surviving medieval texts. For some smaller languages you're lucky to find anything pre-17th century.
Now of course the VM might be just that, as is proposed sometimes. An attempt at writing a language which had no written culture at that point.
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - davidjackson - 26-08-2019
(26-08-2019, 11:51 AM)voynichbombe Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.because all rom (thats the correct way to say it)Really? All my reading on the subject has been in Spanish so that's a new one on me.
I'm afraid that traditionally the gitanos have taken a certain pride in not having a linguistic culture. This has of course lead to their language rapidly evolving where-ever they settled.