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RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - peteb - 30-04-2017
They swarmed through the borders ...
“Few passes have had such continuing strategic importance or so many historic associations as the Khyber Pass. Through it have passed Persians, Greeks, Mughals, Afghans, and the British, for whom it was the key point in control of the Afghan border. In the 5th century bc Darius I the Great of Persia conquered the country around Kābul and marched through the Khyber Pass to the Indus River. Two centuries later Hephaestion and Perdiccas, generals of Alexander the Great, probably used the pass. Buddhism flourished in and around the Khyber when it was part of Aśoka’s kingdom (3rd century bc); Buddhist remains include Kāfir Kot (Citadel of the Kafirs), Shopla stūpa (also called the Khyber Top), and the stūpa near Ali Masjid. The pass was used by Maḥmūd of Ghazna, Bābur, Nāder Shāh, and Aḥmad Shāh Durrānī and his grandson Shāh Zamān in their invasions of India. Ranjit Singh, the Sikh ruler of the Punjab, extended his kingdom as far as Jamrūd in the early 19th century.”
Source: Brittanica.com
If you were to look for a preserved collection of ancient and medieval manuscripts, given that more than a couple may have been in the possession of the above parties, where would you look?
Who would you call?
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - -JKP- - 30-04-2017
(30-04-2017, 06:48 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.There's a hole with no bottom!
No reason they shouldn't, but then one would expect different visual themes in the book from a nomadic culture.
That's my gut feeling also, that the themes would be different, but if it were someone absorbed into the local culture at an earlier age (but not too early, someone old enough to retain some of the ancestral culture), it might result in something out of the mainstream.
I've even considered that the VMS might be a product of someone kidnapped at a fairly young age on an exploratory sea voyage and brought back and raised in western society. Merchants and missionaries are known to have done this.
All very speculative, and probably not the simplest explanation, but interesting to consider once in a while.
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - peteb - 30-04-2017
We have davidjackson, Koen, ReneZ, JKP and myself standing in a room, each holding a copy of the same page of the Voynich Manuscript.
The sound you hear is everyone scratching their heads.
If the manuscript we are holding is indeed much the same as a fingerprint, then it would make sense to go to a manuscript repository to see if they have an identical print ..
JKP: nice analogy, camels are known as the ships of the desert, perhaps your youngster isn't that far off the beaten track.
I'm nearly through here, a couple more posts and I'm done.
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - Diane - 01-05-2017
Pete
I looked into the possibility of gipsy transmission during the research-and-exploration phase 2008-2011. One of the items which I found very interesting was the story of an early arrival - a 'chief' - whose name was Thomas and said he was from southern India. All very possible.
Another tid-bit that intrigued was an account of how a gipsy - possibly also Thomas - I'd have to look back at those notes.. was conversing in Basque with a local. A third party asked how a (foreign) gipsy could speak Basque and the local just said, 'How could he not speak Basque?'
As you may know, Basque is a difficult language to learn.. so how could a newly arrived eastern gipsy know it?
If you want, I can send you a copy of those posts and the bibliography. Nice to see the topic crop up again later at Stephen Bax' site, adding so much linguistic information.
I think it's a dead end, though. I think the peripatetic profession we should be looking for are those travelling to a purpose: merchant-traders, Franciscan missionaries...
that sort of thing.
Come to think of it, others might find it interesting, so I'll re-print the posts from the old blog at voynichimagery.wordpress.com
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - peteb - 01-05-2017
Diane ... we will only know if it's a dead end when we reach it. Thanks for the offer of information, gladly accepted.
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - peteb - 01-05-2017
This is all I've got.
Three Gypsy tribes exited Northern India about the 5th century, two were language related (classed by sister). They spoke the ben and phen dialects. They are thought to have wandered through Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran before entering Mesopotamia / Eastern Europe in about the eleventh century and becoming the Rom(ani), Lom and Dom.
We can assume the Gypsies were proficient in beading, sewing, building, metal-work, wood-work, smithing, tailoring, shoe-making, decorative painting, making medicinal used of roadside plants, star-gazing for navigational reasons, communicating with other travellers, bartering in foreign currencies, paying roadside taxes, rearing animals, teaching their children - and reading.
But there has been no record found of what they might have read.
This is where Master Voynich sticks up his hand and waves it with great vigour, like the child in the back of the class who knows he's got the right answer.
Maybe.
~~
A History of the Gypsies of Eastern Europe and Russia - David. M. Crowe. 1994
Paraphrased from the Preface:
The author's scientific and historic approach has enabled him to not only explore the negative aspects of the Roma's relationships with non-Gypsies, but to also look at the other side of the coin, and examine the positive contributions they made in the culture and literature of the region.
Literature.
It was only in the 12th century that confirmed historical documents place a Roma presence in eastern Europe.
Documents.
Detailed allusions during this period come from Croatian and Hungarian Slovak records.
Records.
Quote: "These allusions to Gypsies suggest they had a rich life in the republic."
~~
Notable Quotes"There is no record of any written (Gypsy) language(s), although there are several suggestions for Romani, including one based on Devanagari."
Ian Hancock, Professor, Department of Linguistics, College of Liberal Arts, University of Texas.
There is no universal written Romani language in use by all Roma. However, the codification of a constructed, standardized dialect is currently in progress by members of the Linguistic Commission of the International Romani Union.
Kemal Vural Tarlan – authors the Middle East Gypsies website
“It is now, we believe, generally admitted that Hindostan is the natural country of the Gypsies; and of the three dialects generally used in that country, the language of the Surat, the ancient Sarashtra, resembles the most nearly that used by his people (sic).”
Deardon’s Miscellany
The book is on order.
Thanks for the welcome and participation.
Pete (tomsbytwo.com) I was told if you want to plug your website on a discussion it's manners to do it at the end rather than the beginning.
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - Davidsch - 01-05-2017
I've done extensive research on the Romani languages & dialects and
analyzed and discussed the language specifics with the experts on it. Read a You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - voynichbombe - 09-05-2017
Thank you David,
are there other parts to be read? The 1515 Benedictine monk's name is Johannes (de|ex|von) Grafing.
Do you have something on the Erromintxela (Para-Romani with Basque grammar and curious "ajin / najin" verb form)?
Pete, I think dropping the Devanagari line would greatly improve your plot.
Another good starting point for weaving a narrative could be Josef Zlatodej's story (if you can stand a lot of swear words - he posted on your blog). Maybe you can link that with the "Buhameak|Bohémiens".
Anyway, a few thoughts that did not seem to fit here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - peteb - 10-05-2017
Thanks Vbombe, but making a narrative of the Vm might take a lifetime and I've spent most of mine in the ocean chasing waves. The Voynich challenge got to me in between books. In any case, understanding the language you folks use is a job in itself.
Cheers.
RE: Indo Aryan Origins of Voynich .. ? - Gavin Güldenpfennig - 24-08-2019
Hey guys,
as far as I know Prof. Bax
had found the Pleiades in the manuscript. In the labeling word doary he read something like "toarn" or "tauron", which he translated with "Taurus".This was surely one of best ideas, to find a starting word for deciphering the VMS.
But! I think, he could have missed something...
What if you read doary as "eoar®e". Try to pronounce "e" and "o" together. What is the result?
Correct, we get a "i(o)" or "j(o)"?
Maybe we could read the word doary as "jâr®e".
In the Romani language it means "eggs". And now look at this....
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In the Middle Ages some cultures (for example the Germans) see the Pleiades as the cluster of a hen with their eggs.
Furthermore, Volder Z shows in his videos, that the Romani fulfill different features of the Voynichese.
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I have even found two more features, which shows a connection to Romani.
In the Voynichese we have some words with two case markers and free Genitives.
For example the construction Kooiin eheopchor otaiinodain on folio 2v...
See my transcription:
Kooiin eheopchor otaiinodain
ño - on - k iriob - horr o - pan - ko - eaik
I tried to found a possible translation:
Non on - ek errubi - hura o - panj - ek
So we have extracted the following words and word parts:
Non = (Basque: where)
on = (Basque: good)
ek = (Basque: Ergative Case Plural)
errubi = (Basque: ruby)
hura = (Basque: the) -> maybe Basque hor and hura were one word at the Middle Ages
o = (Kalderash: the) -> masculine form
panj = (Kalderash: five)
ko = (Kalderash: Genitiv case marker) -> masculine Singular
ek = (Basque: Ergativ Case Plural)
So we could translate this word cluster as:
"Where the ruby of the good five (...)"
And now look at this:
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I´m not sure, if Mirach or Erakis is meant in this sentence, but both have a connection to the legend of Andromeda and Perseus.
Wasn´t something with nymphs in this story?