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+--- Thread: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" (/thread-1869.html)
RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - MarcoP - 21-04-2017
(21-04-2017, 08:46 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I tried to split off the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. discussion into a separate thread just for clarity.
Well done
(21-04-2017, 08:46 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Marco: what makes me believe that there is distance between the VM and the other examples is the fact that a number of crucial elements are different, which are common to the Italian herbals.
- presence of leaves on the vine
- coloration of berries
- manner of attachment to the host
- presence of prominent roots
Now I haven't studied the Egerton MS in detail, but it is a fact that most herbals did not feature 100% new illustrations. Even if a herbal was a new creation, they'd still have to borrow material from sources. Or is it known that the Egerton MS author drew all plants from scratch? Wouldn't this be highly exceptional?
I agree on the distance between the VMS illustration and other illustrations. I just can't see why this distance should be explained as due to some lost source.
The fact that ancient herbals are not 100% original is not an axiom but an observation based on the comparison with other manuscripts. If an illustration cannot be compared with other sources, it is normally assumed to be an original creation.
I think that Egerton 747 is largely original, but in part still derived from earlier sources. Its originality was highly exceptional when it was written (1300 ca) and makes it important in art history. That ms is the earliest case of a break with a tradition that had been mostly unchanged for several centuries. After this first break with tradition, other innovative works followed, some in the naturalistic line (e.g. the Carrarese Herbal Egerton 2020 -1400 ca-, Guarnerinus' Bergamo MA 592 -1441-, Auslasser's herbal BSB Clm 5905 -1479-) other in a more symbolic line (e.g. Florence Pal 586 -1350 ca-, the “Alchemical Herbal” BL Canon 408 -1378-, Cadamosto's herbal BNF Italien 1109 -1471-).
The carbon dating of the VMS and the hints that suggest a Northern Italian origin point to a time and area in which the production of original herbal illustrations is well documented. I guess this flourish of original illustrations can be seen as one of the manifestations of the Renaissance.
(21-04-2017, 08:46 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So while the diagram you offer is not entirely impossible, I do favor Rene's more cautious note on his site:
Quote:While the Voynich MS illustration clearly isn't a copy of the Paris MS, it is also inconceivable that it was not in some way inspired by this or a similar illustration in another MS.
In other words, some relation seems very likely but it may be through similar sources rather than through direct influence.
I think Rene's observation might be related to what he wrote above:
(20-04-2017, 07:56 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Paris illustration is somewhat different, and more similar to the Voynich image.
The Paris MS was reportedly in the Visconti library in Pavia, at the time when the Voynich MS was written.
However, Toresella challenges this, and I am also beginning to doubt it.
It remains a very thin trail to the origin of the Voynich MS, but this is still a little bit more than nothing.
I would like to know more about this. If there are good reasons to believe that BNF Lat 6823 was not in Northern Italy, then direct transmission must be excluded. One could then think of an unknown copy of Lat 6823: the arrows in my diagram (and maybe also in formal “stemma” diagrams?) can be seen as direct or indirect transmission, possibly through intermediate copies.
Occam requires that there must be good reasons to introduce hypothetical sources. A hypothetical copy of a specific ms that explains a specific parallel seems to me a reasonable idea.
RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - Koen G - 21-04-2017
Thanks Marco, that's a clear and to the point explanation of your views. I do agree that a north Italian setting is likely for the production of the VM, and of course I don't dispute the results of the carbon dating either. I also understand why you see renaissance herbal innovations as a suitable backdrop for the production of a manuscript like this.
To some extent I am open to the possibility that the VM consists because of renaissance currents. But the renaissance only happened because people rediscovered their pre-medieval history and the interest in older material grew. Of course that's just one aspect of the renaissance, there was also, as you indicate, a renewed interest (and trust) in personal observation, which is indeed why some of the new herbals are naturalistic.
Now the VM is clearly not realistic/naturalistic. Several authors, including D'Imperio, have remarked that it looks like it should be part of a long standing tradition, but the belief in an authorial figure has always hampered the growth of such observations. She writes (p.14-15) that "plant parts frequently have a curious blocky, chunky, rough-hewn look, with platform-like structures surrounded by hard outlines defining a sharp change of plane. [...] A somewhat similar blocky, rough-hewn appearance is seen in some herbal drawings in other manuscripts, that have been copied over and over again from some earlier source by successive scribes."
She continues that if this were the case, we should be able to pinpoint the tradition from which they were copied, since "the different sets of illustrations for early herbals were relatively few". She then switches from this flash of insight to rather standard "authorial" thinking, blaming the draughtsman for coming up with all this himself.
So basically: it looks like it's the result of copying from an old tradition --> I don't know this tradition --> everything was invented by the author.
Occam's razor is a good guide, but the way it cuts is determined by your premises.
The VM plants look like the result of copying from an old tradition --> I don't know this tradition, but many works have been lost --> the tradition from which the VM derives has been lost.
RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - MarcoP - 21-04-2017
(21-04-2017, 12:13 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Now the VM is clearly not realistic/naturalistic. Several authors, including D'Imperio, have remarked that it looks like it should be part of a long standing tradition, but the belief in an authorial figure has always hampered the growth of such observations. She writes (p.14-15) that "plant parts frequently have a curious blocky, chunky, rough-hewn look, with platform-like structures surrounded by hard outlines defining a sharp change of plane. [...] A somewhat similar blocky, rough-hewn appearance is seen in some herbal drawings in other manuscripts, that have been copied over and over again from some earlier source by successive scribes."
Thank you, Koen. D'Imperio's observations are excellent. It's interesting that she parallels the VMS illustrations with an early printed herbal (Tractatus de virtutibus herbarum, 1491), one of whose illustrations (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) was reproduced by Tiltman. The same set of engravings contains You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of the “hollow-roots” that we discussed You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
According to D'Imperio, plants look “chuncky”, “mechanical”, roots look “like a string of wooden blocks”. This reminds me of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. by Paolo Uccello (painted in 1450 ca).
Gombrich Wrote:Both horses and men look a little wooden, almost like toys, and the whole gay picture seems very remote from the reality of war. But if we ask ourselves why it is that these horses look somewhat like rocking horses and the whole scene reminds us a little of a puppet show, we shall make a curious discovery. It is precisely because the painter was so fascinated by the new possibilities of his art that he did everything to make his figures stand out in space as if they were carved and not painted.
…
By means of his beloved art of perspective, he tried to construct a convincing stage on which his figures would appear solid and real. Solid they undoubtedly look, but the effect is a little reminiscent of the stereoscopic pictures which one looks at through a pair of lenses. Uccello had not yet learned how to use the effects of light and shade and air to mellow the harsh outlines of a strictly perspective rendering.
The “harsh outlines” and “carved figures” discussed by Gombrich correspond to the “hard outlines” and “blocky arrangement” discussed by D'Imperio. I see them as a trademark of the XV Century efforts to more realistically render three-dimensional objects. Finding good parallels for these features in other herbals is not easy, but I agree it's an interesting task. Also, we are now in a much better position than D'Imperio was forty years ago: access to many manuscript herbals is much easier now.
RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - -JKP- - 21-04-2017
(21-04-2017, 08:46 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I tried to split off the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. discussion into a separate thread just for clarity.
Marco: what makes me believe that there is distance between the VM and the other examples is the fact that a number of crucial elements are different, which are common to the Italian herbals.
...
- presence of leaves on the vine
- coloration of berries
- manner of attachment to the host
- presence of prominent roots
I've mentioned this before, but I would like to mention it again, because I believe it belongs on this list...
The VMS differs from all other examples of ivy that I've seen in that the vine "intruding" into the bark of the trunk or branch. It goes through it, almost in the manner of a Celtic knot illustration.
I wondered why it was drawn this way. Was it for decorative reasons? Maybe, but maybe it's for the simple reason that climbing vines insert their rootlets into bark (and cracks of walls) to help secure themselves as they climb. They will even insert their tentacles into the wood of fence posts.
RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - Koen G - 21-04-2017
JKP: this is one of the several parts of this image that are absolutely puzzling. I know ivy first hand, but it just doesn't use its stem to pierce things like that. Here it almost looks like an incision was made in the "pole" and the plant was pulled through it. I'm not sure if there's anything else like it in the VM. I can see how one can still make a case for this being ivy, but the depiction would be exceptional in many ways...
Also, the near-symmetry of the two vines seems to me an indication of either an underlying tradition or a symbolic meaning. I just finished a new blog post where I speculate a bit on this aspect, but I won't import this kind of stuff onto the forum since literally nobody would agree
RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - -JKP- - 22-04-2017
(21-04-2017, 11:10 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.JKP: this is one of the several parts of this image that are absolutely puzzling. I know ivy first hand, but it just doesn't use its stem to pierce things like that. Here it almost looks like an incision was made in the "pole" and the plant was pulled through it. I'm not sure if there's anything else like it in the VM. I can see how one can still make a case for this being ivy, but the depiction would be exceptional in many ways...
Also, the near-symmetry of the two vines seems to me an indication of either an underlying tradition or a symbolic meaning. I just finished a new blog post where I speculate a bit on this aspect, but I won't import this kind of stuff onto the forum since literally nobody would agree
I have only seen this "helical" shape on one other image and it's not as symmetric or as obvious as the VMS.
I wondered at first if the helical shape (rather than the more common spiral twining shape) was a reference to "Hedera helix" the name of the ivy, but I looked up the etymology of the word "helix" and found it wasn't in general use in the early centuries (plus the plant was known as Hedera nigra in the 14th and 15th centuries), so it doesn't seem likely the helix shape was intended as a mnemonic.
RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - MarcoP - 22-04-2017
(22-04-2017, 12:17 AM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have only seen this "helical" shape on one other image and it's not as symmetric or as obvious as the VMS.
I wondered at first if the helical shape (rather than the more common spiral twining shape) was a reference to "Hedera helix" the name of the ivy, but I looked up the etymology of the word "helix" and found it wasn't in general use in the early centuries (plus the plant was known as Hedera nigra in the 14th and 15th centuries), so it doesn't seem likely the helix shape was intended as a mnemonic.
Hi JKP,
I guess you are referring to what you wrote You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. In the attachment, I have added the Estense ms to those compared by Ellie (above).
The text of the Estense ms seems to me identical to that of Egerton 747 posted by Koen, and "elix" is not mentioned.
"Elix" appears in Manfredus' BNL Lat 6823. It seems to me to say that "elix" was used for the species having no prominent fruits/seeds "elix vo[cant] no[n] h[aben]t[em] sem[en]". "Edera alba" has a white seed/fruit and "edera nigra" a black or yellow one. It's all in the first few lines of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - ReneZ - 22-04-2017
(21-04-2017, 11:10 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I just finished a new blog post where I speculate a bit on this aspect, but I won't import this kind of stuff onto the forum since literally nobody would agree
At least I feel that in this particular case the comparison with the mosaic in Tunis is highly intriguing.
It would seem of interest to find out if similar images were propagated in more, shall we say, portable media.
RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - Koen G - 22-04-2017
(22-04-2017, 09:29 AM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.At least I feel that in this particular case the comparison with the mosaic in Tunis is highly intriguing.
It would seem of interest to find out if similar images were propagated in more, shall we say, portable media.
![[Image: thyrsus.jpg]](https://herculeaf.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/thyrsus.jpg)
My best guess is that it mimics a form of decorative plant setup that may have been common in the area at the time. I do agree that any exemplar images used for the VM were likely in "portable" form. On the other hand, the distance from Carthage to Sicily is about one third the distance from Brussels to Berlin, in other words really close. Even if one demands that al proposed Voynich sources must have been witnessed firsthand by a travelling author, it is not unlikely that an Italian individual witnessed decorations like these in his surroundings.
Besides that, there is evidence that the "symmetrical vines around stem" motif was used more widely - though I have not found any example better than the Tunis one so far. Here's an example from San Marco (Venice):
![[Image: ab61b8310565d35946d0b0d91da1b825.jpg]](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ab/61/b8/ab61b8310565d35946d0b0d91da1b825.jpg)
Edit: for clarity I must add that the one above is a clear example of the "thyrsus" staff, as reference to Dionysos, god of all vines. Whether the makers were aware of that is another question, these things have a tendency to turn into traditions.
A Carthage pavement mosaic, too bad the top is missing.
![[Image: 4e40b2599369cbc43325c0c10bfea216.jpg]](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/4e/40/b2/4e40b2599369cbc43325c0c10bfea216.jpg)
Last edit: here's an example on the floor of the San Marco:
![[Image: sm10.jpg]](http://www.artonstamps.org/Venice/sm10.jpg)
RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - -JKP- - 22-04-2017
(22-04-2017, 09:51 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view....
My best guess is that it mimics a form of decorative plant setup that may have been common in the area at the time. I do agree that any exemplar images used for the VM were likely in "portable" form. On the other hand, the distance from Carthage to Sicily is about one third the distance from Brussels to Berlin, in other words really close. Even if one demands that al proposed Voynich sources must have been witnessed firsthand by a travelling author, it is not unlikely that an Italian individual witnessed decorations like these in his surroundings.
...
Very interesting images, Koen, and an intriguing suggestion for a parallel.
As for distance, that didn't appear to be a problem for them. I'm constantly impressed with how much and how far they traveled.
Medical students regularly traveled between Heidelberg, Paris, and London and the medical schools in Naples/Salerno and I've mentioned before that the Lombard-colonies connection between Naples/Salerno/Bari and what was then a larger Lombardy (now northern Italy) fits right in with Naples-area herbals ending up in Lombardy (and being copied there).
As far as I can tell, from reading about it for the last few years, they often traveled by land to Genoa or Venice (or one of the other big ports of the time) and then sailed to the southern boot. There are some tragic stories of manuscript collectors losing whole trunkloads of books in stormy seas (and almost losing their lives, as well), items they collected while in the south (including parts of Africa) that they were bringing back north.