The Voynich Ninja
[split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - Printable Version

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RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - -JKP- - 06-08-2019

Here are two more 14th-century manuscripts with helical ropes from a Catalan Breviary and a French Book of Hours:
MS Rothschild 2529:

[Image: 1398_Breviary%2Bof%2BMartin%2Bof%2BArago...2%2529.jpg]

Morgan MS M.90:

[Image: 1370_Master%2Bof%2Bthe%2BBible%2Bof%2BJe....050ra.jpg]

This later 15th century Dutch one is kind of helical:

[Image: 1496_Workshop%2Bof%2BHieronymous%2BBosch...2BArts.jpg]

...and c. 1500 from Antwerp:

[Image: 1500_Book%2Bof%2BHours_Flemish%2B%2528An...%2B13r.jpg]


So... that's not enough examples to know (I usually like to have a couple of hundred before I even look at the patterns), but might the helical patterns be mostly France/Flanders?

RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - -JKP- - 31-10-2019

From the Visconti Hours, a single-helix grape vine twining around a plant with oak-like leaves (note, there are certain species of tall straight maple trees that have oak-shaped leaves, so it isn't necessarily oak, but the leaves are the same basic shape):

   

RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - Koen G - 01-11-2019

Grapes (=wine =blood of Christ) would make sense thematically if the reference is indeed to the Flagellation.

RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - MarcoP - 01-11-2019

It seems we are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.  Smile

This happens to me all the time: the inability to trust my memory is one of the most puzzling effects of ageing. The "search thread" box at the bottom is the only hope, when things do not appear off-topic is some unrelated thread.

Since in the meantime we have found You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. to full scans of the two manuscripts containing the Hours, it might be helpful to future readers (ourselves in two years included) to add a reference and page number to the source of this illustration.
I think it was Helmut who recently suggested a forum rule requiring to always add references and links to attached images. Is this idea worth considering?

RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - Koen G - 01-11-2019

(01-11-2019, 07:18 AM)MarcoP
[url=https://www.voynich.ninja/thread-1869-post-13676.html#pid13676' Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.[/url]
I think it was Helmut who recently suggested a forum rule requiring to always add references and links to attached images. Is this idea worth considering?

As a guideline, certainly. But to enforce this as a rule seems difficult. We're dealing with the situation on the internet where one might come across images without reference (this Visconti episode started this way).

Additionally, the specific context of forum conversations makes it so that often it is clear from preceding posts which manuscript one is talking about.

Personally I think it would be good to encourage the practice that at least a link or MS name be added when it is not clear from context. When I'm posting something in a hurry I try to at least copy-paste the link so people can check the details they are interested in.

Admittedly, this is only semi good practice since links can go dead in a few years.

RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - MarcoP - 01-11-2019

(01-11-2019, 07:45 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Additionally, the specific context of forum conversations makes it so that often it is clear from preceding posts which manuscript one is talking about.

If by specific context you mean "previous post in the same thread", I may agree. In this case, the relevant context is in another thread and soon it becomes invisible.

(01-11-2019, 07:45 AM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Personally I think it would be good to encourage the practice that at least a link or MS name be added when it is not clear from context. When I'm posting something in a hurry I try to at least copy-paste the link so people can check the details they are interested in.

Admittedly, this is only semi good practice since links can go dead in a few years.

I agree: links are not reliable. Manuscript library references are (they can change too, but I think this is extremely rare).

RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - ReneZ - 01-11-2019

With respect to the oak and ivy illustration in the Visconti hours (from the De Grassi workshop) it is worth remembering that the MS that is now Paris BN Lat 6823, and which has the following illustration of an oak and ivy, was probably in the Visconti library at the start of the 15th century. This may have been an inspiration for the Visconti hours (and maybe for the Voynich MS).

   

One of my rather numerous hypotheses is that the Voynich MS was composed by someone who had access to the Visconti library. This particular hypothesis suffers from the fact that this library did not seem to have a copy of the Balneis, so it isn't that high on the list.

(The library of Alphonse of Aragon, in Naples, had more than one copy, but it is a bit late for the Voynich MS).

RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - Helmut Winkler - 01-11-2019

Marco wrote

I think it was Helmut who recently suggested a forum rule requiring to always add references and links to attached images. Is this idea worth considering?


My suggestion was made with a view to trying to introduce standards of normal  and accepted scholarship. Shelf marks don't vary or both old and new sh.m. are given and links nowadays are mostly perma links, at least in  digitization projects of libraries. And the snippets that are given sometimes are just awful, no scholar in his senses would give an opinion on them

RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - -JKP- - 01-11-2019

I am also in favor of good standards and agree that there should be credit or links (whichever is appropriate).

But...

Unfortunately, the viewer for the Visconti Hours does not show folio numbers (fortunately most of them do). I suppose one could count down through the thumbnails, but I don't have enough extra time to do that and others might not either.

Sometimes I find images of interest on sites that don't credit them. I usually look for the original source, but I can't always find it. I have numerous blogs that are mostly written, but unfinished because I am missing an important image (that I can't re-locate) or because I found an image on a site that has no credit or link to the original, so I cannot verify the date or authenticity and even though it might be important, I am reluctant to use it.


Also, I did not keep shelf numbers for many of the items I collected between 2007 and 2015 (and even some of the ones beyond that). I wasn't aware that I would be communicating with other researchers, I was just trying to learn (and to solve the VMS).

Even after I started blogging, I only saved shelf numbers for topics I thought I might blog about, not for items that I screensnapped for personal reference as reminders or as learning tools.


Then the forum starts and we talk about topics I never expected to communicate about (or which I didn't realize right away would be relevant) and here I am with a terrabyte of files with no shelf marks.

I do try to look them up if it's something of special importance, but it's sometimes hard to find them again.

RE: [split] f35v parallels "oak and ivy" - Aga Tentakulus - 01-11-2019

        On this sheet also the wine on ( oak? ) is to be seen. This book has even more coincidences. See dragons, prister cap with ball, gravel and sand.  Sometimes I think the VM author must have had this book in his fingers.

Original link if probably doesn't work anymore.
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