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+--- Thread: green water (/thread-184.html)
green water - don of tallahassee - 04-02-2016
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RE: green water - crezac - 04-02-2016
With respect to the green water in VMS people make a big deal about it being green bath water. I think there are a few other explanations offered here for discussion.
First possibility, the color isn't important because it was added later. I noted something in a few JPGs and decided to download some of the HI Res TIFF images. I looked at images 1006208.tif and 1006214.tif I tweaked tonal values plus contrast and found three places on the first image and six on the second where it looks like there may be labels, or at least glyphstrings, under the green tint. There is something on 1006215.tif too, but it looks more like transfer form another page to me. It's unlikely the original artist would have applied a color wash heavy enough to obscure information. So possibly someone used the VMS for a coloring book at one point and added colors they though should be there. This would also explain why some plant stems are painted and others aren't and why some leaves look like the paint job is really sloppy. It might also explain whe the "bath water" in 1006215 is green but the windows looking into the bathwater are blue.
Second possibility, The water is used to indicate various steps in a process designed to produce some result. So it's green when the process is, for example, aging the solution, and blue when it's being used to do something else like extract essense from the ingredients being soaked. The ladies in this scenario are ingredients in the process, each being a representation of a different ingredients or possibly essences alredy in the solution (the number of ladies goes up as the pages progress).
Third possibility, it's green because the blue tint was too heavy to use for the water in most places. The green might have been something that thinned better in water. 1006218.tif has a color wash that looks like it might be a mix of blue and green tints. Do they mix easily or is this tint a different tint from the other two? Perhaps it was blue originally but the cheaper blue dyes faded to green?
Finally, copper, Polmolive or whatever, maybe it is a bath and they did have green bathwater. I'm not big on this one since there's only one pic I can find where they do anything but sit. And the setup is pretty elaborate for a bath. Reverse flow processes and the importance of social bathing aside I don't know of any baths that had bath attendants flying arond in conch shells or women holding up big jeweled rings in the bath.
Of course most of these are not either/or. Some of the color could have been added later on some images. Some of the images may be metaphorical. Pigments could have been mixed for various reasons with various results. And there might even be a picture of a real bath or two in there just as an excuse to add more naked ladies to the manuscript.
RE: green water - -JKP- - 04-02-2016
(04-02-2016, 04:19 AM)don of tallahassee Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I recently started a file of green water images. They are attached.
Use them as you will. No credit necessary to me.
Thank you.
Don of Tallahassee
I don't know whether the green water is because green paint was more available or whether it was painted by someone later but there is a nymph page where two of the buckets in the bathing tank are explicitly painted blue, rather than green (one is a lighter blue, an aqua shade). In other words, it is possible that the green water was a deliberate choice, rather than one of convenience.
I haven't looked at your examples yet, Don, (I have a bunch of work to finish and have to run) but thanks for taking the time to upload what you have found. I'll come back later, when I can, and take a look.
RE: green water - juergenw - 21-02-2016
(04-02-2016, 05:35 AM)crezac Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.With respect to the green water in VMS people make a big deal about it being green bath water. I think there are a few other explanations offered here for discussion.
First possibility, the color isn't important because it was added later. ...
Second possibility, The water is used to indicate various steps in a process designed to produce some result. ...
Third possibility, it's green because the blue tint was too heavy to use for the water in most places. ....
Finally, copper, Polmolive or whatever, maybe it is a bath and they did have green bathwater. ...
Of course most of these are not either/or.
Another possibility could be the non-existence or non-use of blue in classical times. Blue was not used to visualise water (green, I believe, was). So that might have been an effect carried over from copying old sources?
RE: green water - VViews - 21-02-2016
(21-02-2016, 08:25 PM)juergenw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(04-02-2016, 05:35 AM)crezac Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.With respect to the green water in VMS people make a big deal about it being green bath water. I think there are a few other explanations offered here for discussion.
First possibility, the color isn't important because it was added later. ...
Second possibility, The water is used to indicate various steps in a process designed to produce some result. ...
Third possibility, it's green because the blue tint was too heavy to use for the water in most places. ....
Finally, copper, Polmolive or whatever, maybe it is a bath and they did have green bathwater. ...
Of course most of these are not either/or.
Another possibility could be the non-existence or non-use of blue in classical times. Blue was not used to visualise water (green, I believe, was). So that might have been an effect carried over from copying old sources?
And yet another possibility: many languages don't distinguish between blue and green, or don't classify them in the same way that we do on the color spectrum:
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RE: green water - don of tallahassee - 21-02-2016
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RE: green water - VViews - 22-02-2016
Hi Don of Talahassee,
I understand what you're saying, but I don't think these maybe's and what ifs are pointless.
I don't think "green water" is something that you will be able to pinpoint to a time or place like other motifs such as the "merpersons" or "zodiac" signs.
I think that the fact that the water is green and sometimes blue in the Voynich either tells us something about the water itself (yes there was/is green bathwater, due mainly to plants etc being added, but there could be other reasons), or the fact that in the artist's world/view, the green/blue distinction which seems so important to modern eyes just didn't matter that much.
And remember, colors might just be there to throw us off!
Anyway, on to pictures!
You'll find dozens of maps with green water, from everywhere, on this very extensive page:
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Here are a few from French Mss:
1200 France, Manuscript Moulins BM Ms.01 Bible Souvigny Folio 93r-2
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Late 13thC France, Divine Bestiary, BNF Français 14969, f21
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Late 13th C
14thC France, Le Roman de Troie, BNF Français 782, f.197
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And of course, this stunner from Boticelli, mid 1480's, which I'm sure we all know:
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As you can see from this quick gathering, green water is found in many times and places, and not a distinctive iconographic thing we can use.
RE: green water - david - 22-02-2016
Don't forget that many blue pigments will naturally turn green over the course of the centuries.
Apart from that, if you live inland, would you naturally assume water is blue - most rivers and lakes tend to be green or brown.
RE: green water - Diane - 22-02-2016
VViews,
Thank you for that wonderful link the history of cartography page.
I have to say that your opinion about green water not being useful in provenancing and dating imagery runs contrary to the usual opinion, which is that to represent sea-water as green was rare in Europe before the manuscript tradition was influenced by models gained from outside the Latin environment, whether Jewish or Islamic.
During the Renaissance, however, when people began to try making 'photographic' pictures, they would represent the green colour of Aegean waters, and of the Venetian lagoon, as it was before polluted.
So, like use of the 'cloud band' pattern in Latin works, seeing sea-water painted green is significant of external influences. That's why some of the earlier examples (such as Matthew Paris' maps) are so interesting to historians.
There are a lot of green-water images on that site, but none are important if dated after 1438.
I look forward to seeing more of Don's examples.
Thank you.
RE: green water - ReneZ - 22-02-2016
All copies of Pietro de Eboli's balneological MS that I know of have mostly green-ish water.
Rome, Biblioteca Angelica MS 1474, just one image:
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Cologny, MS Bodmer 135, entire MS:
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Paris, BN Lat 8161, entire MS:
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Vatican, MS Ross. 379, entire MS:
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