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+--- Thread: month names (/thread-182.html)
RE: month names - Aga Tentakulus - 30-09-2022
@Anton
Surely the names of the months were entered afterwards. The question is how long afterwards?
If I look at the month of November, I see words in VM where they were written in dark ink.
The question is whether the ink became thicker due to evaporation or whether the ink was reapplied because the ink in the drawings simply became too thin.
It is possible that the names of the months were entered immediately after the text. Same person or not.
Only an analysis of the ink would clarify this.
RE: month names - pedestrian - 30-09-2022
Thanks, I agree, a clarification would be good.
I was wondering not about whether a mediaeval or early modern calendar would start in March, but why in Cod. Sang. 678 - a 15th century manuscript from southwest Germany, an area and time with numerous possible connotations with the VMS - on pp 204 & 205 the table of dies, hore, and puncta and the list of zodiac signs run only from March to December. Why were Capricorn and Aquarius left out? Was this normal in that time, in that area?
If we understood why Cod. Sang. 678 left out Capricorn and Aquarius, and we did not necessarily assume that the missing f74 of the VMS contained two more circular diagrams, one with a goat in the middle, the other with someone pouring water, then perhaps we might gain a further, if very slight, insight into the VMS.
(29-09-2022, 04:27 PM)Aga Tentakulus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.1. the year starts with March.
A clarification here would not be bad.
RE: month names - Anton - 30-09-2022
@Aga
I think this was discussed somewhere else, unfortunately I don't remember the exact argument. Out of my head I can only immediately suggest that the hand is not the same as in the other extraneous writings added by the VMS scribe(s). Means some later person, perhaps the next owner.
What I'm puzzled at, is that March through September names are generally consistent with the "Germanic" line (say, an Allemannic dialect), while October through December names end with "re" instead of "er", which I think would be typical for Romance languages instead. In another thread I suggested that some months may have been added by one person, and some - by another. But the case when that could come to reality is not trivial - like, e.g. two different persons possessing two different quires and suddenly deciding to add month names independently of each other.
@pedestrian
I now see your point. Initially I was focused on Allemannic month names and therefore not interested in the later section written by another scribe. Indeed, that's an interesting idea of yours worth a deeper look.
RE: month names - Aga Tentakulus - 30-09-2022
@Anton
Yes you are right, we have had it all before.
Since we already have German text in the VM, albeit not much, German month names are no surprise to me.
Since we also have swallow-tailed pinnacles, which clearly points to southern Alps, the "-bre" ending does not surprise me either.
Furthermore, he does exactly the same thing in the E-Codis link. He also uses October and Octobre.
Even November is spelled exactly the same, even in the VM.
So the picture with the collection September shows that it can and has been written in different ways by the same person.
Furthermore, the German language south of the Alps is not surprising. Since in 600 the Lombards (Germanic tribe) spread into northern Italy, and later merged into the Duchy of Bavaria. at 1000
With the redivision of Europe after Napoleon, some areas did not fall to Italy but to the Habsburgs. This led to the Italian Wars in 1866. So one part went to Italy and the rest after the First World War.
Actually everything is quite normal. But we've been through this somewhere before.
RE: month names - Koen G - 30-09-2022
So do/did any Germanic dialects actually say "Septembre"? Or should this be seen as a writing convention (borrowed from Romance) akin to British English "centre"?
Edit: this is important because in the latter case you are essentially arguing that a Germanic speaker wrote a Romance form.
RE: month names - Anton - 30-09-2022
@pedestrian
Looking more attentively at p. 203 onwards, and also at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., I guess that the talk is about when the new (?) moon appears in which Zodiacal sign, which is presumably beneficial for bloodletting. So this is not about the solar cycle but rather something about the lunar mansions. This does not answer the question of why January and February are omitted though. Maybe they are poor choice for bloodletting for some reason.
RE: month names - Anton - 30-09-2022
(30-09-2022, 03:39 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So do/did any Germanic dialects actually say "Septembre"? Or should this be seen as a writing convention (borrowed from Romance) akin to British English "centre"?
Edit: this is important because in the latter case you are essentially arguing that a Germanic speaker wrote a Romance form.
Well, as long as in the VMS we are dealing with writing exclusively, this question, though interesting per se, is not actually essential. Insofar it's been shown with an example that a Germanic person uses -er and -re interchangeably, this suggests that that might have been the case with the VMS as well. This allows one hypothesizing to withdraw the alleged step of the VMS travelling to e.g. some Occitan region (or, alternatively, an Occitan person traveling to the VMS region) from the picture. Because the learned natives of the VMS region would themselves consider -re and -er as equal choices, at least in writing.
RE: month names - Aga Tentakulus - 30-09-2022
Here it would probably make sense to look for comparative material in the Swiss Idiotikon.
Perhaps there are different applications there.
RE: month names - nablator - 30-09-2022
(30-09-2022, 03:39 PM)Koen G Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So do/did any Germanic dialects actually say "Septembre"?
Or maybe the author used to switch language often and got a bit confused here.
(M)ense septembris is clearly Latin, also Mensse septembri (and correct, except for the double s)
(E)n septembre could be French
RE: month names - Anton - 30-09-2022
(30-09-2022, 05:01 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(E)n septembre could be French
It's "In", not "En"