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RE: An explanation of the Voynich Manuscript text - Davidsch - 21-04-2017
Quote:Torsten:
For letters you are arguing against something never said. There was simply no thesis that letters are not predictable.
Your statement about the word order is obviously wrong. Sequences of repeated words using the same word order all the times are missing for the VMS. Since they are missing there is no way to argue that the order of words is predictable.
Hello Torsten, I'm happy to read your quick feedback !
There is a word order.
You yourself are claiming that the letters, or parts of the words are copied. That on itself is an order, isn't it?
I am not talking about the exact sequences of words. I am talking about predictions.
I predict that the next two lines will start with "the".
The fact that you do not see it, is never an argument that it is not there.
The word occurrences are predictable, therefore sequences are. (Note: a sequence in language does not mean sequential as in programming !!)
RE: An explanation of the Voynich Manuscript text - Torsten - 21-04-2017
I agree with your new statement that only the position for single words is predictable. The words of the VMS are indeed encoding in some way there position.
[font=Times]Your reference to SVO demonstrates that there is no misunderstanding about what a sequence is. [font=Times][font=Times]A[/font][font=Times] sequence in language means a sequence of words like in [/font][font=Times]p[/font][font=Times]hrases as [/font][font=Times]"if I had[/font][font=Times]" or[/font][font=Times] "if we[/font][font=Times] had". Therefore y[font=Times]our statement that if single words are predictable the same must be true for sequences is simply wrong. [/font][/font][/font][/font]
RE: An explanation of the Voynich Manuscript text - DonaldFisk - 22-04-2017
(21-04-2017, 11:10 AM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Your test about word order (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) only demonstrates that a word doesn't depend on the previous word. Unfortunately this observation alone is not enough to allow the conclusion "that words are output randomly". It is also possible that a word depends on his position within a line, that a word depends on a word in the previous line or that a part of a word depends on a part of the previous word. For the VMS it is possible to give examples for each of them: Words ending with [m] are most likely found as last word of a line. There is an increased chance that you can find the same word in the next line in the same position (see the word [daiin] on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). Last but not least there is also an increased chance that a word ending with [y] is followed by a word starting with [q].I proposed an additional mechanism for deciding the beginning of paragraphs, and the same could apply for the ends of lines.
I'd be very wary of making observations based on small details. I'd also point out that words in the text are not just random, they are very random (variance = mean squared), so higher-than-chance occurrences of *some things* are very likely.
Re daiin, very similar patterns appear in my 21st Century Voynich Manuscript, and that is random (but with a variance lower than the real manuscript).
RE: An explanation of the Voynich Manuscript text - Davidsch - 22-04-2017
At first I entered here the relevant information that you both did not mention, although it is improbably that you have overlooked it, still on second thought I removed it.
I do not get the feeling that an open discussion and exchanging information is highly appreciated, but making statements on own theories is more valued.
If in the future, I notice I had the wrong perception, I will stand corrected and am most willing to share and exchange thoughts on these matters.
RE: An explanation of the Voynich Manuscript text - Torsten - 22-04-2017
(22-04-2017, 01:58 AM)DonaldFisk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I proposed an additional mechanism for deciding the beginning of paragraphs, and the same could apply for the ends of lines.
I'd be very wary of making observations based on small details. I'd also point out that words in the text are not just random, they are very random (variance = mean squared), so higher-than-chance occurrences of *some things* are very likely.
Re daiin, very similar patterns appear in my 21st Century Voynich Manuscript, and that is random (but with a variance lower than the real manuscript).
Words in the VMS are not related with the previous words. But this did not mean that words are random or as you say very random. That I give examples for some observations did not mean that my statements are based on some details:
90 % of the paragraphs start with a gallow glyph (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). There are also glyphs typical for line initial position (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
600 out of 1100 words ending with [m] are used as last word of a line (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for the observation that words in the VMS co-occur with similar ones.
See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for the [font=Times]statistically-significant effect of word-final glyphs on the initial symbol of a following word.[/font]
See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for some observations about the line as a functional unit.
The words in the VMS are not ordered as expected for a natural language but they are still ordered in some way.
RE: An explanation of the Voynich Manuscript text - DonaldFisk - 22-04-2017
(22-04-2017, 07:14 PM)Torsten Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Words in the VMS are not related with the previous words. But this did not mean that words are random or as you say very random. That I give examples for some observations did not mean that my statements are based on some details:
90 % of the paragraphs start with a gallow glyph (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.). There are also glyphs typical for line initial position (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
600 out of 1100 words ending with [m] are used as last word of a line (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. or You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for the observation that words in the VMS co-occur with similar ones.
See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for the [font=Times]statistically-significant effect of word-final glyphs on the initial symbol of a following word.[/font]
See You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for some observations about the line as a functional unit.
The words in the VMS are not ordered as expected for a natural language but they are still ordered in some way.
So, when a word starting with a gallow glyph is generated, a new paragraph is sometimes started. When the last word generated ended in m, a new line is started, etc. That doesn't necessarily signify meaning.
I found the same relationships between page types, and between certain words, found previously by Montemurro. It's because different parts of the manuscript are generated slightly differently. -edy words occur so frequently in the Currier B (red) herbal pages that they appear to be related.
I'm still unconvinced. Anyone's free to attempt to reproduce my results, or find a way to infer meaning consistent with them.
However, things still aren't quite correct. I neglected the labels, as that involves a fair bit of preprocessing. It's known they have different properties to the other text. I also need to get in place a new (probably Poisson) random function and a means of choosing the next glyph which has the property that variance = mean^2.
RE: An explanation of the Voynich Manuscript text - Emma May Smith - 22-04-2017
(22-04-2017, 10:31 PM)DonaldFisk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, when a word starting with a gallow glyph is generated, a new paragraph is sometimes started. When the last word generated ended in m, a new line is started, etc. That doesn't necessarily signify meaning.
I think it is well-accepted that the presence of words beginning with a gallows or ending with [m] is caused by line position, rather than their line position being caused by their presence.
RE: An explanation of the Voynich Manuscript text - DonaldFisk - 23-04-2017
(22-04-2017, 11:06 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is well-accepted that the presence of words beginning with a gallows or ending with [m] is caused by line position, rather than their line position being caused by their presence.
Has anyone explained this, or provided any evidence? Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation.
This would be extremely easy to fake, whether or not the text has meaning. Just ensure you start a new paragraph when you're about to write a gallows character.
RE: An explanation of the Voynich Manuscript text - Torsten - 23-04-2017
(22-04-2017, 10:31 PM)DonaldFisk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.So, when a word starting with a gallow glyph is generated, a new paragraph is sometimes started. When the last word generated ended in m, a new line is started, etc. That doesn't necessarily signify meaning.
I found the same relationships between page types, and between certain words, found previously by Montemurro. It's because different parts of the manuscript are generated slightly differently. -edy words occur so frequently in the Currier B (red) herbal pages that they appear to be related.
I'm still unconvinced. Anyone's free to attempt to reproduce my results, or find a way to infer meaning consistent with them.
However, things still aren't quite correct. I neglected the labels, as that involves a fair bit of preprocessing. It's known they have different properties to the other text. I also need to get in place a new (probably Poisson) random function and a means of choosing the next glyph which has the property that variance = mean^2.
Your approach is based on the idea that the VMS is random. Therefore my point is that VMS is not random or nearly random. If the VMS has meaning or not is indeed another question.
I would not agree to your statement that different parts of the manuscript are generated slightly differently. In my eyes the opposite is true. The output of the generation method is changing over time. There is a transition from Currier A to Currier B.
In the paper of Montemurro this is described as a network of relationships between the sections (see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.).
Herbal pages exists in Currrier A and in Currier B since after generating the pages in Currier A the pharmaceutical section the astronomical section were generated first.
Schinner has demonstrated in his You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. from 2007 that the probability of the occurrence of a similar word decreases with distance: "Interpreting normal texts as bit sequences yields deviations of little significance from a true (uncorrelated) random walk. For the VMS, this only holds on a small scale of approximately the average line length; beyond positive correlation build up: the presence/absence of a symbol appears to increase/decrease the tendency towards another occurrence." (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.: p. 105).
There was a local element in the text generation method used for the VMS. At least the words are not independent from other words on the same paragraph. Therefore it is not possible to simulate the VMS with a purely randomly generated text resulting in words used independently from each other.
RE: An explanation of the Voynich Manuscript text - Emma May Smith - 23-04-2017
(23-04-2017, 02:07 AM)DonaldFisk Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(22-04-2017, 11:06 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I think it is well-accepted that the presence of words beginning with a gallows or ending with [m] is caused by line position, rather than their line position being caused by their presence.
Has anyone explained this, or provided any evidence? Correlation doesn't necessarily imply causation.
This would be extremely easy to fake, whether or not the text has meaning. Just ensure you start a new paragraph when you're about to write a gallows character.
Yes.
1) Words which begin with gallows at the beginning of paragraphs (Grove words) are often unusual in their structure. Removing the gallows makes them more regular. This suggests that the gallows is often added (although I agree that this is not the only cause).
2) If words ending [m] caused the end of a line, we would expect many short lines as words ending [m] occur elsewhere in the text, or even just shorter than average. But such lines typically run the full length of the page with no space for further words. This suggests that it is caused by being the last word in a line.