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+--- Thread: [split] Are there trees in the VMS? (/thread-1791.html)
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[split] Are there trees in the VMS? - Koen G - 05-04-2017
Edit KG: this thread is split from another one where Marco stated that the VM does not contain any trees. I thought this question worth its own thread.
Thanks, Marco. You touch upon an interesting question which I've meant to bring up before: are there trees in the VM? I agree that at first sight the plants look mostly like herbs, though this is hard to tell for sure since we have no indication of scale. Isn't it thought, for example, that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might be a tree? This is something that really needs its own thread, though at the moment I don't have time to give it the attention it deserves.
RE: The Wonders of Creation BSB Cod.arab. 464 - -JKP- - 05-04-2017
(05-04-2017, 07:31 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Thanks, Marco. You touch upon an interesting question which I've meant to bring up before: are there trees in the VM? I agree that at first sight the plants look mostly like herbs, though this is hard to tell for sure since we have no indication of scale. Isn't it thought, for example, that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might be a tree? This is something that really needs its own thread, though at the moment I don't have time to give it the attention it deserves.
I've looked extensively to see if there are trees, as trees were included in many manuscripts, but it doesn't seem that way except for the one that might be Prunus from the plum/cherry family You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., with what I think are nectar glands (I've never seen anyone else suggest that, but it's an anatomical adaptation to steer bugs away from the fruit that might be represented this way in a drawing). But there also exists an You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. flower with glands (I think they may be air roots rather than nectar glands but when they first come out, they look like nectar glands because they are red and partway up the stem), so even 25r might not be a tree.
I suspect the only reason there's a tree in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is to show the twining habit of the vine (which is probably the main subject and is likely Hedera nigra, now called Hedera helix). So the tree is a prop rather than the focus of the page, just as in the image that I think is You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (dodder). The tree is only there to show the parasitic habit of the dodder.
It is traditional for medieval herbals to include the tree and the host plant as props, so the illustrator probably saw some of those manuscripts and adopted the idea.
RE: The Wonders of Creation BSB Cod.arab. 464 - bi3mw - 06-04-2017
(05-04-2017, 07:31 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree that at first sight the plants look mostly like herbs, though this is hard to tell for sure since we have no indication of scale.
The layout of the text might show a hint of the plants' size too. For example, it would have been no problem to reduce the size of the plant on folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. until the layout looks like on folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . So it seems important that the plant on f30r is extended to full height ( or not on f31v ).
![[Image: comp_f31v_f30r.png]](http://wwwhomes.uni-bielefeld.de/mwille2/VMS/comp_f31v_f30r.png)
RE: The Wonders of Creation BSB Cod.arab. 464 - -JKP- - 06-04-2017
(06-04-2017, 12:41 AM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(05-04-2017, 07:31 PM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I agree that at first sight the plants look mostly like herbs, though this is hard to tell for sure since we have no indication of scale.
The layout of the text might show a hint of the plants' size too. For example, it would have been no problem to reduce the size of the plant on folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. until the layout looks like on folio You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. . So it seems important that the plant on f30r is extended to full height ( or not on f31v ).
...
It might, but... viola is a pretty small plant and it takes up a big chunk of the page, so there's not much additional room to use the space on the page to draw a tree to scale compared to the other drawings. And trees aren't just bigger, they are proportioned differently (and they branch in ways that many small plants do not) and there's not much evidence of those traits in most of the VMS plants.
If there is attention to scale (I think there is, to some extent), it appears to go from medium-small to small, not from small to really large, as in a tree, with the exception of the two that more obviously appear to be trees (the host trees for ivy and dodder).
RE: [split] Are there trees in the VMS? - Koen G - 07-04-2017
Thread split.
What I meant to bring up was the following. I think that there may be more trees and shrubs in the manuscript than one would think at first sight. The problem is that trees are drawn like one would draw a herb, with the leaves emerging straight from the main stem or a central point rather than on branches.
As a starting point, let's have a look at the supposed oak tree. There seems to be at least some consensus that this is a tree. JKP noted that it might be more of a prop, to indicate that the vine grows on this type of tree - while the vine is the focus of the image. I agree that this is likely the case on f35v.
But if this is likely a tree, it wil also give us valuable information: how does the VM draw trees?
Comparing the VM oak to a real one makes it clear that there are large differences. Oaks branch out starting pretty low on a relatively thick stem. The branches split into smaller branches and eventually into twigs, on which the leaves grow.
In the VM, two leaves grow straight on the stem and a number more are bunched up on top. The stem is long, straight and does not branch.
So what's going on? I think the answer is simple: the VM does not draw trees, but rather twigs (possibly in order to be able to show the leaves well). An oak twig has "alternate leaf arrangement, clustered terminal buds". Seems pretty close.
Now if the VM does indeed draw twigs and adds roots to them, which appears to have been the case in the oak, then there are suddenly a whole lot of potential twigs.
Just flicking on through the images I see f25r f42r f45v f52v ... Examples like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might actually show blossoms or some kind of other stuff that grows on trees.
RE: [split] Are there trees in the VMS? - -JKP- - 07-04-2017
If it's not something small like Impatiens, the one that might be Prunus (plum/cherry family), might well be a small branch of a tree.
For the host plant for the leafless vine that I think is dodder, it's completely logical that there are "snakes" running through the roots. This is how dodder grows. A twig falls off somewhere and it literally grows into something that looks like a green snake and snakes along the ground until it finds a host plant. Then it twines up the plant, inserts its stickers in the roots and into the stem. So even though snakes with eyes might not seem naturalistic, if you've seen dodder shoots, it makes total sense to draw them that way.
RE: [split] Are there trees in the VMS? - MarcoP - 08-04-2017
I apologize for the oversight.
RE: [split] Are there trees in the VMS? - Koen G - 08-04-2017
The point I'm trying to make is not that there may be one or two trees.
The point is that if the VM represents trees like one of their twigs, there may be dozens of trees in the manuscript. If this is the case, it should have a profound impact on our ability to understand the VM plants, since we know that some of them may be little branches or twigs rather than herbs.
This is not just baseless speculation. My first impulse was to see the "oak" in the manuscript as a very badly drawn tree. But when I researched how oak leaves are arranged on the twigs, I noticed that the VM shows his pattern well: alternate leaf arrangement and clustered terminal buds.
RE: [split] Are there trees in the VMS? - MarcoP - 08-04-2017
As discussed by Rene Zandbergen, Ellie Velinska, Alain Touwaide and several others, the illustration in Voynich You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is similar to the illustration of Black Ivy (Edera Nigra) in Manfredus de Monte Imperiali, Liber de herbis et plantis BNF Latin 6823 f60r. It's interesting that the same manuscript contains another illustration, in which the fruits of the oak tree are discussed ("galla" i.e. acorn, f74r).
Here I have attached the "galla" illustration to the "edera" parallel from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Manuscripts in the Tractatus de Herbis tradition typically represent a few trees, so it's possible to compare similarities and differences with illustrations of smaller plants. For instance, in this same ms, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. represents the fig tree "ficus".
RE: [split] Are there trees in the VMS? - Koen G - 08-04-2017
Indeed, the oak twigs in both manuscripts are fascinatingly similar. It's hard to imagine that there isn't any relation between these two illustrations, however distant or close. The point remains that both are twigs. The VM even reinforces this by having two slightly alternated leaves on the twig itself, instead of only the grouped terminal buds.
This is not something I've looked into before, but it seems like representing trees in herbal manuscripts was difficult because usually they'd want to draw the leaves in a recognizable way, but trees are too large to do that. I think the Manfredus herbal shows two different strategies to cope with this. The Ivy example just uses a twig. On the other hand, the acorn and ficus example use a strategy I've noticed before in a similar depiction of an almond tree. The tree is drawn in its basic shape with branches and all, but the leaves and fruits are enlarged.
The Manfredus herbal doesn't draw roots, as we can expect because twigs don't have roots and on full oak trees the roots are not important. But the VM stubbornly adds roots to everything, even an oak twig. This is why I'd consider the possibility that many more of the supposed herbs are actually tree twigs with added roots.