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+--- Thread: Poggio theory as presented by Claudio Foti: more evidence (/thread-1741.html)
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RE: Poggio theory as presented by Claudio Foti: more evidence - Daniel Briggs - 03-04-2017
Thank you all for your informative replies.
In terms of evidence that Poggio's hand was involved, I submit only seven items:
1. The sum of money (600 florins) he says he intends to ask of Piero instead of 500;
2. His incredible talent and acquaintance with the science (largely humanities) of the day;
3. His proximity to the epicenter of inventions in typography, including the semigothic "Rotunda" font;
4. His desire to go on at some length lauding the baths at Baden in a letter to his friend;
5. The fact that Piero Lamberteschi's only known work is entitled "I Cherubini del Rigagnolo," or "Cherubim of the Rivulet" (I have ordered the book), which could be very close in theme to about a third of the Voynich Manuscript;
6. The fact that he was from Northern Italy, which some believe could be the origin of the manuscript, and may have spent time in Hungary in 1422, while we know that the manuscript was probably produced within twenty years of that date either way, and we know pretty well that it ended up among the possessions of the King of Hungary;
7. The fact that he attended the Council of Constance in 1414–1418, and went book-hunting after the Council; simultaneously, consequences for heresy were delineated as a result of that council, and were harsh and could lead some to desire to encrypt their writings.
That said, I do not believe that the sum of the weights of these seven items compares with the simple fact, that has been mentioned, that Poggio was likely an expert stylist, and the Voynich manuscript has much that is amateurish about it. So it would in fact be bizarre to try and attribute its hand to him. I will continue to investigate Piero Lamberteschi to the extent that it is possible; but I expect to find, as René Zandbergen has already said, that it is likely the work of an unknown herbalist, possibly from Germany, about which nothing else can be known.
RE: Poggio theory as presented by Claudio Foti: more evidence - ReneZ - 03-04-2017
In the earlier days of the mailing list (pre-2000) the most prevalent view was that the MS was from Italy, and from the 3rd quarter of the 15th century.
At that time, and in this frame, I hypothesised that the MS could be the product of George of Trebizond.
Interestingly, Trebizond and Poggio Bracciolini "knew each other well". Their feud is the topic of modern studies.
It was also possible to make a fairly long list of points in favour of this hypothesis. Circumstantial evidence if you will.
This included George's humanist hand, his suspected familiarity with renaissance ciphers (as a papal secretary) the importance of the sign of Pisces for him, and a suspected mental disorder. (He was, basically, "different").
Anyway, I dropped it after seeing some of his handwriting, and because of the same point: the statistical probability was simply too small for me to warrant a dedicated effort digging into the life of one person.
"Below" the very well known people like Leonardo da Vinci, Poggio, Hartlieb or Averlino, there is a whole class of people that are not household names, but are still known from letters and other documents which are known only to historians. Among these one finds lots of people with a relevant background, who have travelled Germany and Italy (as we now know it) studied in various places etc etc. One or several of them could well be involved, but again the odds are not very good.
RE: Poggio theory as presented by Claudio Foti: more evidence - Diane - 05-04-2017
The Poggio scenario has been around for years.
What we are given is an internally-consistent narrative, and one consistent with various other wished-for outcomes.
What I've yet to see is anything remotely relevant to our understanding of the content in a single folio. Basically we end up (as has happened time out of mind) with
A. the manuscript.
B. the story.
Then you get a third phase where people try to impose the story onto the manuscript.
Here are some basic questions: how many languages did Poggio Bracciolini read, write and/or speak (anyone can copy a Greek text).
Have we any evidence that Poggio ever wrote texts that were intended to be incomprehensible?
Given the episodes which I reported, where Poggio was unable to learn anything about exotic plants because he couldn't find anyone with the necessary technical vocabulary - what explanation is offered for the exotics in the Voynich botanical folios?
Poggio basically made his pocket money by taking advantage of his job as papal secretary to raid monastic libraries for 'classics' which he then copied and sold for a goodly amount to the Italian literati, who were mad for them.
He always made neat, tidy, very legible copies... if anyone wants to claim he made the Voynich manuscript, they'll have to produce evidence that he copied, or invented, a script like the Voynich script.
Otherwise, it is all just another historical novel without any power to explain any of the hundred details in the imagery (alone) which deny the scenario.
Sorry.
RE: Poggio theory as presented by Claudio Foti: more evidence - -JKP- - 05-04-2017
(05-04-2017, 11:03 AM)Diane Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.The Poggio scenario has been around for years.
What we are given is an internally-consistent narrative, and one consistent with various other wished-for outcomes.
What I've yet to see is anything remotely relevant to our understanding of the content in a single folio. Basically we end up (as has happened time out of mind) with
A. the manuscript.
B. the story.
Then you get a third phase where people try to impose the story onto the manuscript.
Here are some basic questions: how many languages did Poggio Bracciolini read, write and/or speak (anyone can copy a Greek text).
He could read and write several languages. In addition to being a copyist/calligrapher, he was a translator, although the impression I get is that most of his projects involved translating from Latin. Much of his history is known, including his whereabouts at particular times, and also some information on which projects he was working on at those times.
Have we any evidence that Poggio ever wrote texts that were intended to be incomprehensible?
I don't know about incomprehensible texts. He had many legitimate contracts. He was also a writer. He was not just a book collector, he was a busy copyist/translator. Part of his passion for collecting books came from a desire to translate rare texts that weren't easily available, to earn extra cash. Apparently he was ambitious for a higher standard of living (this is known from his letters to his friends) so who knows, maybe he would be open to writing something "incomprehensible" on the side (as per the secret project that he was discussing in his correspondence with colleagues) but whether he would actually do it? There is still debate about whether a specific set of books is legit or forged. Perhaps he forged other things that have not been linked to him.
As I said up-thread, I doubt if his hand is in the VMS, but that doesn't mean he or his compatriots weren't linked to it in some way. We don't know. He knew people all over the continent. There's evidence that quite a few herbal manuscripts (and other kinds of manuscripts) were left unfinished, some had only pictures, then labels (or labels and text) have been added by other hands. I get the feeling there's a connection between the VMS text and the illustrations but... the possibility remains open that someone drew it and someone else picked it up and added the "text".
RE: Poggio theory as presented by Claudio Foti: more evidence - Daniel Briggs - 08-04-2017
Well I am dense.
The title "I Cherubini del Rigagnolo" wasn't written by the 15th c. Piero Lamberteschi, but an early 20th c. writer who seems to have decided to co-opt his name as a pen name.
RE: Poggio theory as presented by Claudio Foti: more evidence - Diane - 08-05-2017
-JKP-
In all but the speculation, italicised in the quote, I'm entirely at one with your comments.
Quote:I don't know about incomprehensible texts. He had many legitimate contracts. He was also a writer. He was not just a book collector, he was a busy copyist/translator. Part of his passion for collecting books came from a desire to translate rare texts that weren't easily available, to earn extra cash. Apparently he was ambitious for a higher standard of living (this is known from his letters to his friends) so who knows, maybe he would be open to writing something "incomprehensible" on the side (as per the secret project that he was discussing in his correspondence with colleagues) but whether he would actually do it? There is still debate about whether a specific set of books is legit or forged. Perhaps he forged other things that have not been linked to him.
As I said up-thread, I doubt if his hand is in the VMS, but that doesn't mean he or his compatriots weren't linked to it in some way. We don't know. He knew people all over the continent. There's evidence that quite a few herbal manuscripts (and other kinds of manuscripts) were left unfinished, some had only pictures, then labels (or labels and text) have been added by other hands. I get the feeling there's a connection between the VMS text and the illustrations but... the possibility remains open that someone drew it and someone else picked it up and added the "text".
I think where the conversation veers off in these cases is when focus shifts from the task of correctly appraising, and then understanding the content of, Beinecke MS 408 to telling the story of some famous, or nearly-famous person who for some (usually flimsy) reason is lit upon as the 'author' at first or second remove.
It is statistically fairly unlikely that whoever made the VMS (i.e. inscribed the content) should have had his name recorded, let alone feature in subsequent histories of his age.