+- The Voynich Ninja (https://www.voynich.ninja)
+-- Forum: Voynich Research (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-27.html)
+--- Forum: Physical material (https://www.voynich.ninja/forum-42.html)
+--- Thread: order of f103r till f116r (/thread-1730.html)
Pages:
1
2
RE: order of f103r till f116r - Emma May Smith - 29-03-2017
(29-03-2017, 02:44 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(29-03-2017, 02:20 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Words ending [ry] occur 270 times, 178 of which are at the line end.
Similarly, words ending [ly] occur 498 times, 220 of which are at line end.
I simply think that line end positions see additional [y] added onto words which otherwise end with certain characters.
Do you suggest that y is obsolete ?
Is it then: obsolete as word ending in general, or just as line ending?
I believe that words are generally unusual at both the beginning and end of lines (especially in Quire 20). These line patterns can be broken down into a number of different processes. The cause of these processes could be many things, though I tend toward a phonological cause.
RE: order of f103r till f116r - Davidsch - 29-03-2017
I decided it is not a language or sounds, (let's call it VMS language) because for one reason, every language makes it possible to incorporate "foreign names".
For example when a foreign name of a herbal has to be converted to our own language we use the nearest phonemes,
but there are always impossibilities for which special letters or constructions are needed.
But finally there are always words that are impossible to process and those words appear unchanged often. Such words are not inside the VMS. For example words like Greece or Bethlehem.
Converting a foreign name in the "VMS language" letter for letter, would mean that we would see much long words. Cause those words must represent the different foreign sounds letter for letter and that would make long words always. There are some longer words in the VMS. Those could then represent "foreign" names.
Longer words are at least 8 long.
We would expect those words to pop up in the herbals. Especially in the first line or at least the first paragraph. Also we would expect these to be used as labels.
Those words are not necessary unique with one repeat, but they would have a low repeat.
I did not find those cases in the VMS which I described.
But I did not find time to investigate those long words detailed (see other thread) and match them with the patterns I'm listing for all other words.
Perhaps there is a flaw in this reasoning, if so, let me know.
RE: order of f103r till f116r - ChenZheChina - 11-01-2019
(29-03-2017, 08:39 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Converting a foreign name in the "VMS language" letter for letter, would mean that we would see much long words. Cause those words must represent the different foreign sounds letter for letter and that would make long words always. There are some longer words in the VMS. Those could then represent "foreign" names.
Longer words are at least 8 long.
We would expect those words to pop up in the herbals. Especially in the first line or at least the first paragraph. Also we would expect these to be used as labels.
Those words are not necessary unique with one repeat, but they would have a low repeat.
I did not find those cases in the VMS which I described.
But I did not find time to investigate those long words detailed (see other thread) and match them with the patterns I'm listing for all other words.
Perhaps there is a flaw in this reasoning, if so, let me know.
Hi David,
Basically, what you think is right. However, whether a long word is allowed is still restricted by orthography.
For example, in Chinese, we do translate foreign country names into similarly pronounced characters, but we still write characters one by one. (but as whole only when writing Pinyin)
For example:
- Austria → 奥地利 (Àodìlì)
- Poland → 波兰 (Bōlán)
- Belgium → 比利时 (Bǐlìshí)
- Denmark → 丹麦 (Dānmài)
- Russia → 俄罗斯 (Éluósī)
- Finland → 芬兰 (Fēnlán)
- Netherlands → 荷兰 (Hélán)
- Norway → 挪威 (Nuówēi)
- Portugal → 葡萄牙 (Pútáoyá)
- Turkey → 土耳其 (Tǔěrqí)
- Spain → 西班牙 (Xībānyá)
- Greece → 希腊 (Xīlà)
- Italy → 意大利 (Yìdàlì)
- Austria → Áo (from Chinese 奥 Ào)
- Poland → Ba Lan (from Chinese 波兰 Bōlán)
- Belgium → Bỉ (from Chinese 比 Bǐ)
- Denmark → Đan Mạch (from Chinese 丹麦 Dānmài)
- Russia → Nga (from Chinese 俄 É)
- Finland → Phần Lan (from Chinese 芬兰 Fēnlán)
- Netherlands → Hà Lan (from Chinese 荷兰 Hélán)
- Norway → Na Uy (from Chinese 挪威 Nuówēi)
- Portugal → Bồ Đào Nha (from Chinese 葡萄牙 Pútáoyá)
- Turkey → Thổ Nhĩ Kỳ (from Chinese 土耳其 Tǔěrqí)
- Spain → Tây Ban Nha (from Chinese 西班牙 Xībānyá)
- Greece → Hy Lạp (from Chinese 希腊 Xīlà)
- Italy → Ý (from Chinese 意 Yì)
This is because, for copied-from-Chinese country names, most of the country names are translated into Chinese using Modern Standard Chinese (with few exception like Denmark, Sweden, etc), while Vietnamese simply copied the Chinese characters and applied Sino-Vietnamese readings. Sino-Vietnamese readings are rules of reading Chinese characters formed hundreds years ago, based on pronunciations of Middle Chinese.
* For newer country names, Vietnamese have other systems: Copying characters, but reading them in Vietnamese ways. For example: Ireland is written as Ireland, but read as “Ai len”. This is similar to copying Chinese characters and giving them their own readings. There are also Vietnamized country names, which are written and read in a same way. For example: Czech is both written and read as “Séc”. This is not copied from Chinese. The Chinese name 捷克 (Jiékè) would have been read as Tiệp Khắc using Sino-Vietnamese readings.
What important here is, these copied-from-Chinese country names, despite being “foreign” names, are still written in syllables, but not long words.