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order of f103r till f116r - Davidsch - 28-03-2017
Question to Voynich experts:
Is the order of f103r till You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. numbered in the correct order.
This is important to me for analysis of the text & word order.
if yes, how can you tell.
if no. why not and what should be the correct order.
Looking forward to your arguments.
RE: order of f103r till f116r - Emma May Smith - 28-03-2017
Are you asking whether the order as bound or as written?
There's good proof that the order we have now was established a long time ago when the manuscript was bound. However, there's some proof that the order as it was written may have been different.
RE: order of f103r till f116r - Koen G - 28-03-2017
There's no guarantee that it's the correct order, since in several other sections many researchers have noted the likelihood of the folios' having been rebound in an order that was not the original one. In quire 13, it is even believed that one or more bifolios have been flipped around before rebinding (i.e. with the other side facing up).
So if you ask whether we can be certain that the current order was the original one, I'd answer no. But since quire 20 is text only, it's much harder to make an argument on how the order should have been...
RE: order of f103r till f116r - ReneZ - 28-03-2017
David,
there are a couple of points that one can be reasonably certain about:
- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is really the end of the MS. (As a less certain consequence, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is likely to be the start of the section comprised by the last quire).
- the sheets of the MS were stacked in the wrong order before the folio numbers were written
- there really was another bifolio in quire 20 that is now missing
Because of the second point, one cannot be sure that the present order of the folios in quire 20 is the one that was intended by the MS author. Arguments what was the correct order are certainly speculative.
RE: order of f103r till f116r - nickpelling - 28-03-2017
(28-03-2017, 08:56 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.- You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is really the end of the MS. (As a less certain consequence, You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is likely to be the start of the section comprised by the last quire).
- the sheets of the MS were stacked in the wrong order before the folio numbers were written
- there really was another bifolio in quire 20 that is now missing
Elmar Vogt once put up a very interesting post on the Q20 paragraph stars:
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...which I discussed here:
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This post explains what I think the paragraph stars actually are:
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This post suggests why I think Q20 may originally have been formed of two gatherings, Q20a and Q20b:
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This post proposes that it might be worth looking for the source of at least part of Q20:
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There's lots more work to be done on Q20, in my opinion. :-)
RE: order of f103r till f116r - Davidsch - 29-03-2017
If then You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the almost last folio, which is very plausable based on the layout of the last section of the page,
I am wondering what the last words (explicits) could be.
The final 3gram is ary (ary) which occurs 26 times. Of which 23 times at the end of a line. 3 times as folio end. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
(use these google searchterms and add a language or words: manuscript medieval final words)
Some possibilities:
finis
here endeth (correlation with the start of the book: here beginneth)
saecula saeculorum
thus endeth.... etc followed by a date, month, year
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
(More: Parker on the Web project unusual alphabetical index by last word . You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.)
Amen.
Amen Pater Noster.
deo gratia. Amen.
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Per omnia...amen
(You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., plate 10 is on page 328. Large P= Per omnia. in a French Missal ms L 151.)
finis
RE: order of f103r till f116r - ReneZ - 29-03-2017
I also believe that there is a good chance that You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the planned end of the MS text.
Apart from the three points I mentioned, many other more speculative observations can be made.
The stars are a bit of a question already. While they are often considered paragraph markers, a closer look at the last - say - 30% of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. shows that there is no evidence of 'short paragraphs' . However, there are stars in the margin of this part of f108v.
The problem could even be worse than 'just' bifolio rearrangements.
There are examples of manuscripts that have been copied from other manuscripts of which the folios were not in the right order, or some copying error was made. Since the page boundaries do not have to coincide between the original and the copy, there could be jumps also in the middle of the text.
An example of this is the Marcanova MS that was also bought from the Jesuits by Voynich. The nice thing is that this can be used to show that the MS was copied from an older copy that is now preserved in Paris.
Now there is no particular reason to suspect that such a thing happened with the Voynich MS, but it is possible in principle, and this can only be detected if the text turns out to be readable at some point.
RE: order of f103r till f116r - Emma May Smith - 29-03-2017
(29-03-2017, 12:30 AM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.If then You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the almost last folio, which is very plausable based on the layout of the last section of the page,
I am wondering what the last words (explicits) could be.
The final 3gram is ary (ary) which occurs 26 times. Of which 23 times at the end of a line. 3 times as folio end. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Words ending [ry] occur 270 times, 178 of which are at the line end.
Similarly, words ending [ly] occur 498 times, 220 of which are at line end.
I simply think that line end positions see additional [y] added onto words which otherwise end with certain characters.
RE: order of f103r till f116r - Davidsch - 29-03-2017
At this point it is premature for me personally, to go into the stars as bullets. If yes, they are bullets, it would not change the perspective towards the text, except that we have an indication that there might me paragraph starting points. But we already have better locations for that throughout the text
My main focus now remains on the text and not on the images.
The images are secondary to the text to me. I am trying to figure out the flow of the text, what are words and what not.
I would really like any suggestions of book and manuscript text endings. Perhaps a new thread, i donnow.
RE: order of f103r till f116r - Davidsch - 29-03-2017
(29-03-2017, 02:20 PM)Emma May Smith Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Words ending [ry] occur 270 times, 178 of which are at the line end.
Similarly, words ending [ly] occur 498 times, 220 of which are at line end.
I simply think that line end positions see additional [y] added onto words which otherwise end with certain characters.
Do you suggest that y is obsolete ?
Is it then: obsolete as word ending in general, or just as line ending?
(Problem with obsolete(s) / NULLS in general, is that it forms a general "letter dependency order" discrepancy, which I will try to explain in a couple of weeks/months)