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+--- Thread: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah (/thread-164.html)
RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - MarcoP - 22-02-2016
(27-01-2016, 09:45 PM)Oocephalus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I have seen some speculations (sorry, don't remember by whom) that the Nine Rosettes foldout in the VMS might be connected to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. symbol in the Kabbalah.
As the Tree of Life wikipedia page says, "Its diagrammatic representation, arranged in 3 columns/pillars, derives from Christian and esoteric sources and is not known to the earlier Jewish tradition."
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says that the earliest illustration appeared in a 1516 printed book (Portae Lucis by Paul Riccius).
I don't know of any XV Century illustration of the diagram.
RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - EllieV - 22-02-2016
(28-01-2016, 10:01 AM)juergenw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.David, I tried to explain this with flow of (physical) Elements You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (overview figure page 7 , cf the vulcano in the Europe part of the map) with the idea of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. being a climate diagram (explaining the respective continents climate by the position of the (somological) Classical Elements (Air,Fire, Water Earth - and quintessential Ether in the centre being the swivel)
Example of weather elements diagram from Hildegard von Bingen - sort of mini-9-rosette with circles dedicated to lightning, thunder, rain, hail etc.
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RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Oocephalus - 22-02-2016
MarcoP:
Quote:You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. says that the earliest illustration appeared in a 1516 printed book (Portae Lucis by Paul Riccius).
That would of course be a problem for my idea. The concept of the 10 Sephiroth is older than that, but I don't know when the idea of arranging them that way arose.
RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Davidsch - 18-04-2016
Problem is that the very first reference to the kabbalah (originating Spain, later Germany) sefirot are 10-fold and from that point on they remain 10-fold. I searched history for any other representation which could lead to a 9-sefiroth or a depiction like the rosette-page, but found 0.
RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Oocephalus - 18-04-2016
Davidsch: My suggestion was that the 10 sephiroth are actually present, with the T-O map in the upper right as the 10th one, Malkuth, which is associated with the Earth. As I've found no evidence of the Tree of Life diagram existing in the 15th century, I'm now much less sure of this, but I still think the rosettes may show the celestial spheres or layers of heaven. If I'm right, the folio should probably be interpreted with the lower left corner on top, with the T-O map representing Earth and the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at lower left representing the Trinity.
RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - juergenw - 18-04-2016
(18-04-2016, 07:27 PM)Oocephalus Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.... I'm now much less sure of this, but I still think the rosettes may show the celestial spheres or layers of heaven. If I'm right, the folio should probably be interpreted with the lower left corner on top, with the T-O map representing Earth and the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at lower left representing the Trinity.
I also think the rosettes being celestial spheres and layered - see my two papers (in my intro).
What you suggest to be the trinity I think could be a representation of the oecumene as representation of the inhabited world (mainly Europe, Africa(=libya) and Asia) known to the classical world with the opposite being a representation of the southern hemisphere.
RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Davidsch - 19-04-2016
Yes, i can suggest many things as well, but prefer to write here, when it can be backed up by thorough research.
I have visited old Jewish libraries and read many pages on the Kabbalah and the origin of it,
i am no expert, but based on that, i made my observation that the Rosette page has really nothing to do with it.
I wanted to share that, but i realize during typing this, that my comment is probably useless.
Also i can inform you, the TO-map and the ball-faced diagrams have a specific meaning, which does have nothing to do with the Kabbalah.
Recently (couple of weeks ago) i discovered that they are very closely related to the something similar as the tree of life.
Quote:As I've found no evidence of the Tree of Life diagram existing in the 15th century,
Look at 13th century: Yggdrasil, the representation of the cosmos, the Tree of Life. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Oocephalus - 19-04-2016
Davidsch: Sorry, I meant specifically the Tree of Life concept as a Kabbalah concept. Of course there are also other "Tree of Life" concepts in different traditions.
I would be quite interested in seeing your explanation of the folio.
As for Yggdrasil, I've also had the idea that the Nine Rosettes refer to the Nine Worlds of Norse mythology, but then which is which, and why is there a separate T-O map? This usually represents Earth, which is already one of the Nine Worlds (Midgard). However, someone named Yve Kupka had the same idea, and even claimed to identify the individual rosettes. His blog post seems to have been deleted, but Nick Pelling wrote about it You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Note that the nuclear explosion and the rocket ship don't really increase my confidence in Kupka's theory...
RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Davidsch - 20-04-2016
Quote:I would be quite interested in seeing your explanation of the folio.
Yes, me too.
This is one of the things i have no good explanation for.If you allow me to assume that the cosmo-pages have nothing to do with the stars, but only with herbs and flowers
and the bathing is more an explaining of herbal baths, the rooting are ointments or parfum-like things,
which are very common in medieval bathing business, it would be quite obvious that the rosette page has
something to do with that as well.
It could be a fantasy chart of the bathing houses and places the author described. If you look at the charts before the famous You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.atlas,
the form is quite the same as the worldmaps that were common around 1300-1440.
Also you see there in my project in the added Dulcert map images, that the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are just a way of "iconize" regions or cities.
But all that is old news. But thank you for taking interest Oocephalus.
RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - -JKP- - 21-04-2016
(20-04-2016, 01:59 PM)Davidsch Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Quote:I would be quite interested in seeing your explanation of the folio.
Yes, me too.
Also you see there in my project in the added Dulcert map images, that the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are just a way of "iconize" regions or cities.
...
I think those "barrels" are castle towers and yes, they often mean regions or cities or "houses of _[name of noble]__" for city-states.
I suspect the "barrels" in the VMS are more like loges or those open turrets on castle walls (their name escapes me at the moment).
In the nymph wheel where some of them are turned sideways, they look almost more like ceramic than baskets, like those tubes used for making saltpeter that Ellie posted.