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The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Printable Version

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The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Oocephalus - 27-01-2016

I have seen some speculations (sorry, don't remember by whom) that the Nine Rosettes foldout in the VMS might be connected to the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. symbol in the Kabbalah. However, this has been dismissed because the number of Sephirot (aspects of God) depicted in the tree is always ten, while that of the rosettes is nine. I still think there may be a connection. The Sephirot are thought to be associated with the celestial spheres, with the lowest one, Malkhut, being associated with Earth. In the upper right corner of the foldout there is a T-O map, a symbol of Earth, connected to the upper right rosette. So the T-O map could depict Malkhut, while the rosettes could show the other Sephirot. If so, the diagram must be read with upper right as bottom and lower left as top.
This could also explain the symbol in the lower left of the foldout. In the book "Origins of the Kabbalah" by Gershom Scholem, a doctrine is mentioned that originated in a work falsely attributed to Hai Gaon, which was probably written in Provence about 1230. This work tried to reconcile the ten sephirot with an older doctrine called the thirteen middoth. He postulated that above the Sephirot there was the "root of all roots", which contained three "hidden lights" called the primordial, the transparent, and the clear light. This might have been influenced by the Christian concept of the Trinity. 
Could this "root of all roots" be the symbol in the lower left corner? What do people think who know more about Kabbalah than I do?


RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Anton - 27-01-2016

I don't know much about Kabbalah, but I'd like to note that IMO the small T-O map is used to mark the location of continents: the upper right rosette thus is marked to represent Europe.


RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Oocephalus - 28-01-2016

(27-01-2016, 10:39 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't know much about Kabbalah, but I'd like to note that IMO the small T-O map is used to mark the location of continents: the upper right rosette thus is marked to represent Europe.

Of course this could also be true, but if so, what are the other rosettes? However, I have to admit that I can't explain why each rosette looks the way it does, my idea would just explain the general layout and the two circles at top right and bottom left. Note the three tiny connected circles in the one at bottom left, I think these could be the "three lights". 
This does not necessarily mean that the author was Jewish (although it is possible), as some Christians studied Kabbalah as well.


RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - david - 28-01-2016

Anton, you refer to the pathways linking rosettes to different continents, correct?
If the T-O map refers to orientation, then it's possible the suns also are synchronised with the T-O map. In which case, the bottom two continents are reversed.
The top sun would be the dawn in the East (Asia is orientated ontop for this reason, long story short). But if the sun sets in the west, ie over western Europe, then the bottom two continents are reversed. Not that this can be proven, unless someone has an African origin for the book!

Actually, I've always been intrigued You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Is it a giant humanoid with open mouth or is it a tower?


RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - juergenw - 28-01-2016

(28-01-2016, 09:53 AM)david Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Anton, you refer to the pathways linking rosettes to different continents, correct?
If the T-O map refers to orientation, then it's possible the suns also are synchronised with the T-O map. In which case, the bottom two continents are reversed.
The top sun would be the dawn in the East (Asia is orientated ontop for this reason, long story short). But if the sun sets in the west, ie over western Europe, then the bottom two continents are reversed. Not that this can be proven, unless someone has an African origin for the book!

Actually, I've always been intrigued You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Is it a giant humanoid with open mouth or is it a tower?

David, I tried to explain this with flow of (physical) Elements You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (overview figure page 7 , cf the vulcano in the Europe part of the map) with the idea of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. being a climate diagram (explaining the respective continents climate by the position of the (somological) Classical Elements (Air,Fire, Water Earth - and quintessential Ether in the centre being the swivel)


RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - david - 28-01-2016

Juergen, I look forwards to reading it later


RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Anton - 28-01-2016

Quote:However, I have to admit that I can't explain why each rosette looks the way it does, my idea would just explain the general layout and the two circles at top right and bottom left.

There's been a paper by Wastl & Feger (not the one Juergen refers to above, but I think the preceding one) analysing the Rosettes page as "mappa mundi" with additional circles for four elements, check it.

Quote:Note the three tiny connected circles in the one at bottom left, I think these could be the "three lights".

Yes that's a strange image, it always reminds me of the YouTube share symbol. If I remember correctly, someone suggested that it might represent a compass.

Quote:Anton, you refer to the pathways linking rosettes to different continents, correct?
If the T-O map refers to orientation, then it's possible the suns also are synchronised with the T-O map. In which case, the bottom two continents are reversed.
The top sun would be the dawn in the East (Asia is orientated ontop for this reason, long story short). But if the sun sets in the west, ie over western Europe, then the bottom two continents are reversed. Not that this can be proven, unless someone has an African origin for the book!

Yes, there are three pathways, one is clearly from the "Europe" sector of the T-O map, and it links to what is supposed to be Europe. The other is from the "Asia" sector of the T-O map, but where it links to it is not easy to trace. The third one is from what looks kinda watershed between all three sectors of the T-O map, and it's also not clear where it links to.

So based on the identification of Europe and supposing that the T-O map does not revert Europe and Africa (for which curios behavior there is at least one example in known manuscripts), then we have Africa counter-clockwise to Europe, and one of the two remaining corner circles (or both) stand for Asia.

In this layout I see no problems with the Sun. Africa = West, Asia = East, Europe = North, the fourth continent (= South) might be Antipodes (as Wastl & Feger suggested, although I remember that we did not agree on which one of the two is Antipodes, but, judging by the Sun, Antipodes should be the one immediately counter-clockwise from Africa)

Quote:Actually, I've always been intrigued You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Is it a giant humanoid with open mouth or is it a tower?

Most probably, a volcano (it was SantaColoma's suggestion).


RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Oocephalus - 29-01-2016

Anton:
Quote:There's been a paper by Wastl & Feger (not the one Juergen refers to above, but I think the preceding one) analysing the Rosettes page as "mappa mundi" with additional circles for four elements, check it.
Yes, this is quite interesting. I'm not sure all of it is correct, but the identification of the Garden of Eden map seems particularly convincing. 
Another possibility is that the rosettes represent different layers of Heaven. Several old Jewish and Christian texts, such as the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. talk about this. In the version of that book at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ten heavens are mentioned, the highest of which is inhabited by God. Paradise is located in the third heaven according to that book, consistent with a bible passage (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) that can be interpreted in that way. Similar ideas may have inspired the author of the VMs (which does not need to contradict my earlier idea that he might also have been influenced by Kabbalah).


Quote:Yes that's a strange image, it always reminds me of the YouTube share symbol. If I remember correctly, someone suggested that it might represent a compass.

In different orientations, it also has been used as an alchemical symbol for various substances (some of these are mentioned by d'Imperio).


RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Oocephalus - 22-02-2016

I just found this new paper by J. Janick, T. Ryba and A. Tucker (some of you might remember Tucker's earlier paper identifying many VMS plants as Mesoamerican species):
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
They came essentially to the same conclusions that I did: The diagram can be read as a Sephirotic Tree of Life with the lower left corner at the top, the T-O map represents Malkhut and the Nine Rosettes are the other Sephirot. They also made an interesting observation on the three-circles symbol:
Quote:Since the Hebrew alphabet may be written with ball-and-stick elements this symbol may be interpreted to represents the letter resh (ר) which can mean “principal, original, beginning.” 

I don't know whether this is accurate, but in the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., a magical alphabet based on Hebrew, the letter resh indeed looks like that.

Most of the paper is devoted to an interpretation of the Nine Rosettes as a map of a region in Mexico, which I'm not convinced by. If it's a map, the interpretation by Wastl & Feger seems more credible to me.


RE: The Nine Rosettes and Kabbalah - Emma May Smith - 22-02-2016

(28-01-2016, 09:53 AM)david Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Actually, I've always been intrigued You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.. Is it a giant humanoid with open mouth or is it a tower?

The suggestion is that it stands for a mountain (Ararat) with Noah's Ark on top.

The others, anticlockwise, are: a volcano, pipes representing the winds, and a waterfall. Hence Earth, Fire, Wind, and Water. Pretty much Juergen's suggestion but with slightly different identifications.