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[split] f43v - Printable Version

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RE: [split] f43v - Anton - 09-03-2017

The problem with "cups" (for my approach) is that cups do not seem to take part in any folk name of the plant in question. Need to check for the wool...

RE: [split] f43v - Koen G - 09-03-2017

The mnemonics don't have to be linguistically motivated. I think they are in the small plants, but in the large plants they very often appear to point towards a practical application. More in the vein of drawing a snake near a plant against poison.

RE: zoomorphic and anthropomorphic roots - -JKP- - 09-03-2017

Koen, you found an excellent example of the teasel heads in a carding bat.


As a reference to the way the roots are drawn, messy and large (out of proportion to the plant) and not completely covered with brown or red like many of the other roots, uncarded wool looks like this:

[Image: 150895759_660bf91923_z.jpg?zz=1]
Photo courtesy of Laurie, CurlyQ Books

Teasel heads were absolutely essential to wool production as they were used to card the fibers (align the fibers) prior to spinning and, as Koen mentioned, to raise the nap and brush the fabric after it was spun.

Teasel (Dipsacus) is included in medicinal herbals due to the cleansing properties of the roots.


Also of interest is that one of the names of the plant is "Venus's basin" (which might explain the exaggerated cup shapes) and another is Virga pastoris (a reference to shepherds' hooks, which might explain the extra "hooks" on the ends of the leaves).

I can't help wondering, assuming this is teasel, whether it is meant to encompass several kinds of teasel. Many herbal compendiums include two or three kinds of teasel. If this is teasel, and if there is only one, then perhaps the cupped leaves represent cut-leaved teasel and the roots represent Fuller's teasel.



Also, many aspects of the VMS strike me as quite focused, quite targeted. If that impression is correct and if this is teasel, then this drawing reinforces that impression. Note how the basal leaves are not included, as they are less important than the parts that are primarily used (heads and roots), and are not needed for identification. For someone familiar with the plant, there is enough information here to identify both the plant and its uses (the cups are mnemonic for the name, the roots are mnemonic for the use). I mention this because there are other VMS plants that seem to me to have this characteristic... of including what is important and leaving out what is not.

RE: [split] f43v - Koen G - 10-03-2017

JKP:  exactly. They are focused on the practical application, aimed at an experienced audience. That's why we can see that many of the roots must be mnemonic, but we have no idea what they represent. In this case, one must know what raw wool looks like. So yes, fuller's teasel is a convincing ID, though a similar plant may be referenced as well.

RE: [split] f43v - Anton - 10-03-2017

Basin is better, but still I am dubious about this. For teasel, from each "cup" or "basin" only one bud emerges. And this is clearly reflected in the alternative herbals that Marco references above. In the VMS picture, it is quite different: numerous buds (namely, three) appear out of each "basin". Although in the title post there are some pics that look like the VMS one.

RE: [split] f43v - -JKP- - 10-03-2017

(10-03-2017, 11:58 AM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Basin is better, but still I am dubious about this. For teasel, from each "cup" or "basin" only one bud emerges. And this is clearly reflected in the alternative herbals that Marco references above. In the VMS picture, it is quite different: numerous buds (namely, three) appear out of each "basin". Although in the title post there are some pics that look like the VMS one.


It depends how you want to interpret the plant. If you include the smaller upper leaves, then each head has a set of leaves, but if you include only the bigger leaves, the main ones, then there are three stalks splitting off from the big leaves. If it's a reference for others, maybe the small leaves would be included. If it's a reference for yourself, or for people who already know the plants, are the small secondary leaves necessary?

[Image: 235-1000-90.jpg]

Image courtesy of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.

RE: [split] f43v - Koen G - 10-03-2017

By the way, a while ago I launched the (extremely tentative) hypothesis that blue in plant parts meant that they could/should be dried. At least in this case, it would make sense.

[Image: image.jpg?q=f43v-761-730-206-164]

RE: [split] f43v - Wladimir D - 19-03-2017

Analyzing the correspondence of similar elements, I found an exampleYou are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. , the cone - bur of which looks more like an teasel/ Eryngium plant, than on page 43v.

RE: [split] f43v - Linda - 19-03-2017

I like the teasel id.


[Image: 2187027.jpg]

[Image: wk-21-teasel-w-water.jpg]

[Image: image.jpg?q=f43v-579-759.5299682617187-616-429]

RE: [split] f43v - Koen G - 19-03-2017

I still agree as well that teasel is a good candidate. Nice examples, Linda.

The only thing that might really seal the deal is to find an explanation for the shape of the leaves. I'm going to see if I can trace the outlines tomorrow. 

The only difference in leaf shape is really the curl on the.points. I feel like I've seen such a shape before but can't quite remember. Some kind of oil lamp or burner? It could be some ornamental cup or dish as previously suggested, though no idea what that could mean. 
Was teasel used for other things than combing?