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+--- Thread: f and p appear predominantly in the first lines of paragraphs (/thread-1592.html)
f and p appear predominantly in the first lines of paragraphs - davidjackson - 04-03-2017
I decided to test the statement
Quote:f and p appear predominantly in the first lines of paragraphsI define a paragraph as a purely visual item - when in right justified text one line ends before its predecessor. Therefore, I count apart those occurrences when the word appears as a label or in a circular band of text, as paragraphs by definition cannot exist there.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. finds f appearing 499 times. I list below the occurrences :
where f does not appear in the first line of a paragraph/ total number of occurrences. Entries marked * are either circular bands of text, entries marked ** are labels and only the total count is included for those pages:
Conclusions:
Out of 499 total ocurrences, glyph f does not appear in the first line of a paragraph in 63 ocurrences (12.6% of all ocurrences).
The glyph appears in circular text or labels in 61 ocurrences. Out of the reminder paragraph text (438 ocurrences) then the glyph does not appear in the first line 14.4 % of the time.
In summary, when glyph f is present in a paragraph block, it will appear in the first line 85.6% of the time.
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Voynichese.com finds p appearing 1620 times. This is too many to count by hand so I took a sample of Currier A and Currier B pages (listed below) and extrapolated for each.
I list below the occurrences:
where p does not appear in the first line of a paragraph/ total number of occurrences.
Out of 169 occurrences, p is not initial-line present in 32 occurrences (18.9% of the time). Although circular text and labels may skew this result, a visual examination of the Voynichese.com You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.suggests that p is not heavily present on those folios and therefore no further weighting was carried out.
Conclusion: p is line-initial 81% of the time.
RE: f and p appear predominantly in the first lines of paragraphs - -JKP- - 05-03-2017
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RE: f and p appear predominantly in the first lines of paragraphs - MarcoP - 08-03-2017
Hi David,
I find your observation clearly presented and extremely interesting.
I have joined the searches on voyinichese.com highlighting f in green and p in yellow.
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The case of f is particularly fascinating, since the character does not often occur in the first word of a line. So this not so much a case of LAAFU as of PAAFU (paragraph as a functional unit).
Some random speculation prompted by the facts you collected:
The phenomenon might point to semantic structure in paragraphs, which in some respect is to be expected much more than structure in lines. Ancient herbals (and modern herbals as well) often have a fixed structure. For instance, each paragraph might provide the description of a plant including in a fixed order:
- a listing of different names for the plant
- a quantitative evaluation of its Galenic properties (e.g. "dry in the second degree")
- recipes for various diseases
- a description of the plant's habitat
A possible hypothesis is that the paragraphs begin with listings of plant names in different languages (as in Pseudo-Apuleius). While p and f might not properly apply to Voynichese, they are used for words borrowed from other languages.
Another possibility is that the two glyphs are only used for numbers. The first part of each paragraph contains quantitative data, e.g. the above mentioned Galenic properties (as in the Liber de Gradibus Simplicium or Cadamosto's herbal) or the size of the plant and its parts.
RE: f and p appear predominantly in the first lines of paragraphs - davidjackson - 09-03-2017
Indeed Marco and Jkp. I think that a visual look at the layout of these glyphs tends to make you think that they can't be letters, but must instead by a sense marker of some sort - a pilcrow or system of per cola et commata.
RE: f and p appear predominantly in the first lines of paragraphs - MarcoP - 09-03-2017
(09-03-2017, 06:24 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Indeed Marco and Jkp. I think that a visual look at the layout of these glyphs tends to make you think that they can't be letters, but must instead by a sense marker of some sort - a pilcrow or system of per cola et commata.
Thank you for mentioning "per cola et commata" - an expression I hadn't read before.
As I wrote, I don't think that the observed phenomenon necessarily points to the glyphs not being letters: they could be special letters that (due to the systematic organization of the paragraphs) tend to appear in specific positions. I find it harder to think of pilcrows clustering in this way than of some special characters possibly connected with "foreign" languages.
I will try too look for something similar in actual texts: the clustering of any kind of graphic symbol in specific paragraph positions.
RE: f and p appear predominantly in the first lines of paragraphs - Searcher - 09-03-2017
(09-03-2017, 06:24 AM)davidjackson Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Indeed Marco and Jkp. I think that a visual look at the layout of these glyphs tends to make you think that they can't be letters, but must instead by a sense marker of some sort - a pilcrow or system of per cola et commata.Hi all!
As you know, my interpretations of the characters: k, t, p, f are:
k, p - c, g, q
t, f - p, b, m
Maybe, I'm mistaken about their exact meaning, but I strongly believe that they can be C and P in the sense of markers (paragraph, capitulum). Of course, it doesn't mean that all k's, p's, t's and f's are markers in the text. I think that only a part of these characters represents markers of a paragraph or/and a chapter. I'm sure, you payed attention that many of these characters in initial words of lines or paragraphs have some differences in shape from the same ones in the text, in particular, in the center of a word, excluding some rare questionable examples. These differences: stretched top of F and P (sometimes decorated), long K and T. In the same time, k, t, p, f in initial words which have usual shape could be just first letters (C, P) of those words.
In addition, I support the idea that not all visual paragraphs are really paragraphs.
RE: f and p appear predominantly in the first lines of paragraphs - davidjackson - 09-03-2017
As you say, the idea that these are sense markers would give reason to the decorations - it was a natural feature to add embellishment to such markers, either for decorative reasons or just to break up the boredom of the scribe.
RE: f and p appear predominantly in the first lines of paragraphs - Koen G - 09-03-2017
Searcher, that sounds fine at first sight, but it would mean that, ignoring paragraph markers and labels, P only occurs 63 times in the entire core text.
I could understand this if it represents a foreign sound or glyph, like Marco suggests, but with these statistics in mind it is not possible to map this gallow to a normal sound in a one-to-one substitution.
One could still argue that labels use their own system, which is something I consider, but that doesn't solve the problem for the main text.
RE: f and p appear predominantly in the first lines of paragraphs - Searcher - 09-03-2017
(09-03-2017, 11:45 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Searcher, that sounds fine at first sight, but it would mean that, ignoring paragraph markers and labels, P only occurs 63 times in the entire core text.
I could understand this if it represents a foreign sound or glyph, like Marco suggests, but with these statistics in mind it is not possible to map this gallow to a normal sound in a one-to-one substitution.
Yes, in this case I defend my theory that
Quote:k, p - c, g, qbut it must not necessary be quite this solution, it can be another pairs: k and f, t and p, or k and t, p and f, which may mean the same marker. I work with my own theory, but this and the other mentioned possibilities must be checked.
t, f - p, b, m