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+--- Thread: Word Fitting (/thread-156.html)
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Word Fitting - Fachys - 25-01-2016
At the bottom of folio f56r, there is a large space between "kchoar" and "sotodan".
In my interpretation, the spacing exists because "sotodan" would overlap with the illustration. Do you agree?
I mention this because the Voynich text itself could be meaningless gibberish - certainly the qok*dy chains in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. have low information content - in which case it's improbable that the author would not make good use of that space.
While there are other plausible explanations for that particular whitespace, in my opinion it suggests that:
- The author's intent was to write down "sotodan", and no shorter word would do.
- It was not desirable to split up the word in order to fill up the space.
- It was not acceptable to fill in the space with a random set of glyphs.
RE: Word Fitting - Anton - 25-01-2016
I agree that this is the case of avoiding overlapping. Note that the ending r of kchoar already sits quite tight there.
For the qok*dy chains - first of all, we don't know if the text was not shuffled (interleaved). Second, hypothetically there could be cases in which the same message is naturally repeated several times in a row. Please see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. for discussion.
RE: Word Fitting - david - 25-01-2016
It's certainly an indication that the image was drawn first, and the text written afterwards.
RE: Word Fitting - VViews - 25-01-2016
Hello Fachys!
I'm no cryptanalyst, but...
Repetitions on f75r and elsewhere don't necessarily mean low information content, but could reflect something like this (NOT a proposed translation!):
"all we bathers do in the bathhouse is bathe, bathe, bathe. We bathe in hot baths, we bathe in cold baths, bathing till the bathhouse closes."
Or song lyrics such as "row row row your boat, gently down the stream...merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream".
No?
RE: Word Fitting - Fachys - 26-01-2016
(25-01-2016, 03:52 PM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hello Fachys!
I'm no cryptanalyst, but...
Repetitions on f75r and elsewhere don't necessarily mean low information content, but could reflect something like this (NOT a proposed translation!):
"all we bathers do in the bathhouse is bathe, bathe, bathe. We bathe in hot baths, we bathe in cold baths, bathing till the bathhouse closes."
Or song lyrics such as "row row row your boat, gently down the stream...merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream".
No?
Doesn't your example have low information content relative to an average sentence of the same size?
If you meant to argue that low information content does not automatically imply gibberish, then i agree.
RE: Word Fitting - crezac - 02-02-2016
If you start with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there are, at the end of what I refer to as paragraphs one or two glyph-strings that are right justified. Sort of like labels, but just oddly spaced strings for now.
In addition to the plant page you mention there are others where a glyph-string is paired with another near the image or appears to be paired with a vertically aligned block of two or three glyph pairs near the image. Again, sort of like a label.
And You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. among others show isolated glyph-strings near the plant, in the lower right hand corner on these pages. Very like a label.
I think there is some indication that the text on the page serves two different roles. No proof, but some circumstantial evidence.
If that is the case then the assumed descriptive text is being fitted in around the image and around the assumed label.
If, a word were split, for example half of it on each side of a plant's stem in a drawing, I don't think we would be able to tell. If I write something in English like SPEL LCHECKER you can tell I split a word and you can even tell I did it wrong. If I were to do the same thing to VMS text it's unlikely you could make the same judgements.
I'm unclear on your comment about filling space with random glyphs. Are you saying the spacing indicates that that's not allowed or are you saying it happens elsewhere in the text but not here?
RE: Word Fitting - -JKP- - 03-02-2016
(02-02-2016, 11:31 PM)crezac Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
...
If, a word were split, for example half of it on each side of a plant's stem in a drawing, I don't think we would be able to tell....
It was very common for words to split across plants and to split across lines in old herbal manuscripts. Some scribes had symbols for a broken word (as we use a hyphen today), but many didn't bother. It was assumed, since parchment was precious and space limited, that words would break.
This aspect of analyzing the text does make it a greater challenge, in addition to the fact that the spaces in the VMS may not be spaces as we use them.
RE: Word Fitting - VViews - 15-02-2016
(02-02-2016, 11:31 PM)crezac Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
If you start with You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. there are, at the end of what I refer to as paragraphs one or two glyph-strings that are right justified. Sort of like labels, but just oddly spaced strings for now.
Crezac raises a point here about a subject that I would like to hear more about: the right-justified short phrases are found in many places at the end of paragraphs in the Voynich Manuscript.
What is the explanation for this layout? IIUC these have been referred to as labels, is that right?
I would like to understand whether this is a type of layout that is frequent in manuscripts of the time, and what such "labels" typically contain.
To my 21st century eyes, they look like references, indicating that the text in the paragraph above them is from such and such an author or book. But that's probably an anachronism...
Are they in fact just text from the preceding paragraph that continues on this line? Could this be an indication that, in spite of appearances, the text was written right to left?
RE: Word Fitting - MarcoP - 15-02-2016
I am not sure I understand what exactly we are talking about:
"And You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. among others show isolated glyph-strings near the plant, in the lower right hand corner on these pages. Very like a label".
These are Latin quire numbers, 7m[us] and 8v[us], septimus and octavus, seventh and eighth. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Other "labels" which are close to the plants apparently are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., as discussed by Rene.
RE: Word Fitting - VViews - 15-02-2016
(15-02-2016, 03:02 PM)MarcoP Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I am not sure I understand what exactly we are talking about:
"And You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. among others show isolated glyph-strings near the plant, in the lower right hand corner on these pages. Very like a label".
These are Latin quire numbers, 7m[us] and 8v[us], septimus and octavus, seventh and eighth. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
Other "labels" which are close to the plants apparently are You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., as discussed by Rene.
Hi MarcoP,
I only quoted the first sentence in Crezac's post because that is what I am referring to: the last line of each paragraph on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is right-justified. The same thing also happens elsewhere, most clearly on 8r, 28v, 42r... on 58v there is a similar line of text that is centered rather than right justified.
I was not discussing quire numbers or color annotations, nor am I talking about plant labels.
I apologize if my post was confusing: I wrote it a little bit too quickly. I should have remembered that these are known as "titles", per John Grove as explained on Rene's site.
My questions remain: what can these "titles" be? What is their role? Why is their layout like that?
ETA: Link to Grove's full list of "titles": You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.