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+--- Thread: [split] Bax' label readings and "labelese" (/thread-1502.html)
RE: Does the VMs show the solar eclipse of April 15, 1409? - VViews - 06-02-2017
ReneZ,
I see that, but then he uses the same principle to claim other translations of words in the text (not labels) like Centaurea.
Is the claim then that simple substitution and Latin is only used in words that contain "taur"? It seems to me that the shots get longer and longer the more we follow up on this.
I should add that despite this, I applaud Stephen's efforts and the great website that he runs... I don't want to come across as having some personal vendetta against him! I can see the appeal of Taurus for the label, but it doesn't hold up to scrutiny in my opinion.
RE: Does the VMs show the solar eclipse of April 15, 1409? - Koen G - 06-02-2017
I think what Rene means is that there may be two systems. One is responsible for the bulk of the text and the many strange properties of Voynichese. The other is a substitution or as I'd call it a transcription, which may be used for some words in each paragraphs and labels. One might call it "labelese".
One writing system doing two different things isn't too extraordinary, just think Roman numerals vs alphabet.
RE: Does the VMs show the solar eclipse of April 15, 1409? - VViews - 06-02-2017
Koen Gh,
I am not the first person to see a problem here, and while I agree that labelese appears different from the rest of Voynich text, this doesn't solve anything at all in my view.
If labelese is simple substitution thing then we should be able to read all of the labels easily based on the sounds Stephen Bax has identified, right? Yet that doesn't work either.
But I guess I am getting off topic as this was not a thread for discussing issues with Stephen Bax's translations, and also, as ReneZ mentions, he is not the only or first one to have held the belief that doary is taurus. I just happen to be unconvinced by that identification, although I can recognize that it is a tempting one to make.
RE: Does the VMs show the solar eclipse of April 15, 1409? - Koen G - 06-02-2017
Just for the record, I also don't think Bax' transcription is correct, and I see no reason why we should assume this label reads a form of Taurus. But I'm not opposed to the possible existence of labelese
I'll split this thread in a second.
RE: Does the VMs show the solar eclipse of April 15, 1409? - -JKP- - 06-02-2017
(06-02-2017, 09:33 AM)stellar Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.@ JKP
Quote:The 7 stars might represent the solar system or any of the other constellations that are symbolized by the number 7 (there are quite a few of them) and the similarity to Taurus (linguistically or numerically) might be coincidental.JKP,
... If he wished to place a small solar system on the left of this folio he would have most certainly done the whole folio differently as in ellipses of bodies around the Sun. Other constellations? Which one in the night sky has so many bright stars neatly cluster and packed together? ...
I disagree that he would necessarily have represented the "seven stars" (planets) in a conventional way. Very little about the manuscript is conventional and instantly recognizable.
Also, I did not say there were many constellations with seven stars, I was talking about how they were represented in the middle ages, which was often with geomancy patterns, with seven being a common pattern for several of the constellations.
It may turn out to be Pleiades, but I think it's unwise to assume it's Pleiades and to build other assumptions on top of that one.
RE: Does the VMs show the solar eclipse of April 15, 1409? - MarcoP - 06-02-2017
(06-02-2017, 09:45 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.As I recently commented on Stephen Bax's site, if the label is Taurus shouldn't it appear in the Taurus pages? I was told that that is not how Voynich text works.
Hello Vviews,
I am very sorry to read this. On Stephen's site I replied to your comment with these words:
“As far as I know, the kind of internal consistency that you suggest has never been found in the VMS. I do expect that such systematic internal correlations exist (e.g. in most astronomical / astrological manuscripts, the whole list of the twelve zodiac signs appears several times). Spelling variation, discussed by Stephen You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., is a possible explanation for the difficulty of this kind of analysis.”
Your comment could suggest to someone that you received a reply by Stephen. I think it would have been better to mention my name as the author of the unsatisfactory reply you received.
Your summary “I was told that that is not how Voynich text works” certainly does not reflect my intentions: I don't know how Voynich text works and I don't dream of telling anybody how it does or doesn't work. I apologize for expressing myself poorly.
In my reply I observed that the kind of internal consistency you suggest has not been found yet. I completely agree that it would be highly desirable to find links of the kind you propose! For instance, a few months ago I You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. on Derek Vogt's star labels by noticing that one of the star labels in f68r1 (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.) also appears prominently in the Cancer page: these are the only two occurrences of the word. It would be nice to come to an interpretation capable of explaining both the occurrences!
(06-02-2017, 09:45 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I didn't comment further over there because I didn't want to come across as disrespectful to Stephen Bax, but I find it awfully "convenient" that Voynich text should be a simple substitution cipher only when it fits assumptions based on the illustrations...
Are you sure that discussing Stephen Bax's ideas on this forum rather than with Stephen Bax is the most respectful way to proceed? My personal experience is the Stephen appreciates and encourages constructive scientific dialogue and doesn't judge differences of opinions as disrespectful.
Coming back to the main subject of the thread, in my opinion Stephen's main contribution to the field is the systematic focus on both images AND text at the same time.
Of course there are many groups of seven stars (even if only very few appear prominently in cosmological diagrams). Of course, it's strange that the Pleiades are labeled “Taurus” (or a similar Persian or Greek-related equivalent) instead of “Pleiades”. But what about EVA:doary? Which better interpretation for the label can be advanced?
RE: [split] Bax' label readings and "labelese" - VViews - 06-02-2017
Hi MarcoP,
I really meant no offence to you or Stephen Bax and apologize sincerely if my remarks here were inappropriate.
My saying that I was told "that's not how it works" shows my misunderstanding of your comment. I should have quoted you.
And you are correct, upon reflection, I should indeed have replied over there, and will do later today when I have more time.
Again, apologies!
As for me, I really need to get more coffee in my system before posting in the mornings next time!
RE: [split] Bax' label readings and "labelese" - Koen G - 06-02-2017
Marco: I don't see it as a sign of disrespect that another researcher's findings are discussed on a public forum. As long as it happens in a decent manner.
And I definitely agree that Bax has contributed a lot by showing a way to tackle the text on an image by image basis rather than with big statistics. There is a good chance that this kind of approach will prove to be the way forward. And as you say, on a personal level he is always kind and ready to discuss his research.
However, I also understand the criticism that the substitution only seems to work for a number of words, but becomes hard to maintain when trying to transcribe an entire page for example.
RE: [split] Bax' label readings and "labelese" - Davidsch - 06-02-2017
I think what Koen writes is a good point and
one should take the last point seriously:
finding a solution for the entire manuscript is indeed more difficult than 1 word.
Stephen's 2014 paper - MarcoP - 06-02-2017
Thank you for your kind words, VViews! I am glad we made things clear
I don't have the competence to meaningfully discuss any linguistic theory, but, having read Stephen's work several times, here are a couple of points that seem to be relevant for this discussion.
1)
(06-02-2017, 09:45 AM)VViews Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I find it awfully "convenient" that Voynich text should be a simple substitution cipher only when it fits assumptions based on the illustrations...
Stephen Bax did not write that the VMS is a simple substitution cipher. He doesn't think the manuscript is written in a cipher. He wrote that the Voynichese alphabet was possibly created for “a previously unwritten language or dialect, perhaps by a small community which later died out or disappeared.”
Here is a longer quote from his 2014 paper You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
Quote:A question still unresolved is why the writers of the VM used this script at all instead of another which might have been available to them (such as Latin or Arabic), and then how this particular script was devised. A common reason for devising a new script, if it is not for purely economic reasons, is to support a new national and/or religious identity or to support new cultural elements in a society, as in the case of Armenian for example (Parsumean-Tatoyean 2011). With regard to how scripts are devised, although it is possible to invent a script completely from new, this is rare; ‘new’ scripts have usually been derived or adapted from existing scripts, for example Ethiopian Ge’ez from South Arabian, with vowelling added probably following inspiration from India (Daniels 1997). Another fascinating example is that of the Glagolitic Slavic alphabet created in the 9th century. In this case a script was devised for a language which had no script by a small group of people, supposedly two brothers, using signs adapted from Greek, Hebrew, Coptic, Armenian and Samaritan (Sussex, Cubberley 2006, Auty 1968).
He also notes that “we need to be aware that, as with Linear B and Egyptian hieroglyphs, there might not be a full and straightforward one-to-one correspondence between sounds and symbols, and also that we could be dealing with a language which omits some vowels as an Abjad does, or has syllabic elements”.
2) He does not propose a strong link between Voynichese and Latin in general, nor, in particular, between EVA:doary and the Latin “Taurus”.
Quote:Historically the word Taurus is thought to derive from Proto-Indo-European *tau-ro, *tawros, *teh₂wros. meaning bull (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.); it is also linked with Semitic variants such as the Arabic word ‘thaur’, which signifies both ‘bull’ and also the constellation (Footnote: In addition, the Arabic for the Pleiades is “Al Thurayya”, though this is etymologically unrelated to ‘thaur’). For this reason, when we come to gloss the VM word positioned to the right of the seven stars in the illustration, it is important not to assume that it represents the Latin TAURUS per se, as some commentators seem to do; it could well be a variant from another language.
And below (bold mine):
Quote:In summary, the language of the Voynich manuscript is probably not European, but is more likely to be Near Eastern, Caucasian or Asian. We need further evidence to see whether it is of Indo-European, Semitic, Turkic, Kartvelian (e.g. related to Georgian) or from another language family.