RE: Character entropy of Voynichese - Torsten - 16-12-2017
(16-12-2017, 10:39 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Torsten, what I'm speaking of is not gallows characters as such, but the "gallows coverage"- the phenomenon whereby the gallows' loop covers the subsequent characters. It's discussed in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and subsequent posts. I'm not aware of anybody's having systematically investigated that and looking if any rules are exhibited.
This is an embellishment for initial gallow glyphs.
RE: Character entropy of Voynichese - Anton - 17-12-2017
Nope.
It's true that gallows coverage is most often seen in line-initial vords, but:
1) It's not always that the gallows exhibiting coverage is the first character of the vord. See e.g. f30r, 2nd paragraph.
2) There are cases when the initial gallows is drawn in such a way so as to manifest the absence of the coverage. See e.g. f32r, 2nd paragraph with an unnaturally narrow loop of f in fcho.
3) There are cases where gallows coverage is exhibited in non-line initial vords. Loops covering one character can be found quite frequently, but there are also loops covering many characters. See e.g. f87r, line 1.
4) The gallows coverage is also found in labels, at least for t. See f68r1.
RE: Character entropy of Voynichese - -JKP- - 17-12-2017
(16-12-2017, 10:39 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.Hi Torsten, what I'm speaking of is not gallows characters as such, but the "gallows coverage"- the phenomenon whereby the gallows' loop covers the subsequent characters. It's discussed in You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. and subsequent posts. I'm not aware of anybody's having systematically investigated that and looking if any rules are exhibited.
I've been working on it for years and the rewards are small.
The problem with these patterns in the VMS (and there are quite a few of them that I've been systematically working through) is that one can spend weeks, sometimes months, looking into each one and come to the conclusion that a specific variation is probably not meaningful, and then one starts on another and gets the same result.
For example, I spent quite a long time trying to determine if the length of the tail or its angle was meaningful for the EVA-y character and it APPEARS that it is not, but... I'm only about 75% sure.
RE: Character entropy of Voynichese - Anton - 17-12-2017
I'm speaking not of any explanation of the patterns (which would be nice of course), but of systematically describing them, to begin with.
RE: Character entropy of Voynichese - Torsten - 17-12-2017
(17-12-2017, 02:05 PM)Anton Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I'm speaking not of any explanation of the patterns (which would be nice of course), but of systematically describing them, to begin with.
Unique and ambiguous glyphs are just normal for the VMS. On nearly every page one or two weird glyphs exists. See for instance this german page You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view..
It is hard to find a pattern behind unique elements. It seems as if the scribe was sometimes testing different design variants for the glyphs used. Sometimes weird glyphs are used to fill gaps. It seems as the glyphs are used for layout reasons. The weird glyphs are one of the reasons for the idea that the glyphs are used to draw an image of a text.
RE: Character entropy of Voynichese - Anton - 17-12-2017
Yes, we have a whole thread about unusual glyphs with many examples by Wladimir: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
To find a pattern behind that, one should think over the way the Voynich glyphs are designed and why they are designed in that very manner. There are no definite answers to these questions at present, but some discussion is here: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
But the gallows coverage is not something "unusual" from this perspective. Except for rare "irregularities", such as additional loops or dots inside loops, it is, on the contrary, quite usual - the same glyphs just exhibit different reach of the loop. So it makes sense, in the first place, to record their usage and see if there are any patterns. For example, it looks like that (labels apart) multi-character gallows coverage is exhibited in first lines of paragraphs exclusively.
RE: Character entropy of Voynichese - Torsten - 17-12-2017
For the VMS you can find on every level familiar elements that can change into something uncommon and therefore unexpected. That is a pattern for the VMS.
On glyph level there are rarely used variants for which it is unclear if they are new glyphs or variants of commonly used glyphs. On word level there are rarely used words which look quite similar to frequently used ones. For instance the word daiiny occurs only once. On first sight it seems unclear if it is a misspelled variant of the more common word daiin or a new word. Even on page level you can can probably describe for each page something only typical for this particular page. And on language level we have the shift from Currier A to Currier B.
It seems that the existence of exceptions is a rule for the VMS.
RE: Character entropy of Voynichese - Anton - 03-06-2018
To comment upon Helmut's You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view., but not introduce offtopic in that thread.
There are some considerations against Voynichese being just a highly abbreviated plain text (Latin or otherwise), namely from the perspective of its statistical properties.
Let's consider an example with the declaration of the universally neglected human rights. Here's its text in Latin normalized as follows: all headers removed, all characters converted to lower case, all punctuation removed, all "v" characters substituted with "u" (so as to bring the text closer to the medieval practise), and also there are no "j" or "w" characters and no digits.
Code: omnium humanae gentis partium perspecto et cognito consensum fidemque propriae dignitatis atque iurium quae omni tempore aequa et paria esse debent nec alienari possunt totius terrae libertatis iustitiae pacis esse initium hominis iurium perspecto et cognito contemptum et neglegentiam ea facinora atrocia tulisse ut morum humanorum conscientiam religionemque minuerint atque etiam aetatis initium qua omnes homines loquendi libertate et credendi utantur nihil terroris indigentiaeque timentes maximum quod homo expetiuerit renuntiatum hominis iura perspecto et cognito legum regimine defendi necesse si cupiunt hominem ultima ratione ad nimiae uexationi ac crudeli dominationi reclamitandum non sollicitari gentium coniunctionibus perspecto et cognito magis magisque in dies faueri necesse gentium coniunctarum perspecto et cognito nationes in constitutione propria iuribus hominis praecipuis fidem se habere confirmauisse ipsius hominis dignitati et uirtuti aequis inter homines uel uirum uel mulierem iuribus praeterea non modo progressioni generis humani communi se fauere decreuisse sed etiam rationibus uiuendi in latiore facultate prosperioribus ciuitates socias perspecto et cognito salua fide de maxima uerecundia et certa obseruantia hominis iurium et omnium praecipuarum libertatum firmandis auxilio cum cunctis gentibus coniunctis conferendo esse pollicitas ad eadem officia persoluenda perspecto et cognito communem formam rationemque et eorundem iurium et libertatum maximi esse momenti et ponderis itaque publicus nationum coetus hanc declarationem hominis iurium uniuersam promulgant omnibus ciuibus et gentibus speciem perfectam et communem adipiscendam ut omnes homines et omnes societatis partes memoriam declarationis tenentes et docendo et instituendo eorundem iurium et libertatum obseruantiam reuerentiamque augeri conentur atque patriis consiliis et externis in dies progredientibus communem omnium et certam probationem rationemque esse tuta cum sociarum ciuitatum ciuium tum ciuium quorum fines in iurisdictionis earundem potestate sint et dicione omnes homines dignitate et iure liberi et pares nascuntur rationis et conscientiae participes sunt quibus inter se concordiae studio est agendum omnium hominum propria sunt quae iura et libertates in hac declaratione enuntiantur generis uultus sexus linguae religionis opinionis ciuilis nullo discrimine atque sine natione diuitiis loco discretis praeterea nullum discrimen statuetur ciuitatis forma et iuris aut gentium regionis aut territorii cuius quidam est siue ea regio aut territorium sui iuris est uel in administrationis fiduciariae dicione uel non liberum uel in cuiuslibet imperii modi potestate suae quisque ipsius uitae libertatis incolumitatis potestatem habet homo nemo iugo et seruitute oppressus teneri poterit nullo pacto seruitus et mancipiorum commercium homo nemo in cruciatum poterit dari suppliciis atrocibus adhibendis suae quisque ipsius probationis potestatem habet ubicumque gentium personae rationalis et ciuilis omnes homines ea lege qua aequo modo defendantur sunt pares sine ullo discrimine omnes homines lege aequa suae ipsorum defensionis ius habent ab omni discrimine quod eam declarationem uiolet atque ab omni incitamento ad id discrimen efficiendum suae quisque ipsius appellationis ad idonea tribunalia patria de facinoribus quae maxima et iusta iura uiolent ei relata a rei publicae institutis uel legibus potestatem habet homo nemo sine causa prehendi custodia teneri uel exilio poterit affici sui quisque pari iure iudices aeque ac coram omnibus adeundi potestatem habet qui non opinioni obnoxii sint sed integri ut iura officiaque sua constituantur atque criminis contra se iustae causae suae quisque ipsius innocentiae coniectae sceleris accusatus omni de defendenda causa auctoritate comparata et fide accepta dum culpa ex lege in publico iudicio ostenta erit potestatem habet homo nemo damnari poterit si iussum quod ipso hoc tempore aut ex domestico iure aut ex gentium non fuerit scelus perpetrauerit uel praetermiserit item nulla poena maior quam quae scelere commisso iure potest dici irroganda homo nemo intercessiones sine causa adire in suae ipsius uitae genus familiam domum mutuam corresponsionem neque in sui fama detrimenta capere poterit suae quisque ipsius tutelae ex lege contra easdem intercessiones aut detrimenta potestatem habet suae quisque et motus et sedis domiciliique in omnium ciuitatum finibus libertatis potestatem habet suam quisque potestatem habet quamlibet regionem atque suam relinquendi in eandemque reuertendi suae quisque comparationis et usus inter alias gentes hospitii potestatem habet uexationum causa quod ius non appellari potest cum homo criminibus non publicis perquiratur uel rebus aduersis gentium coniunctarum consiliis et rationibus suae quisque ipsius ciuitatis potestatem habet homo nemo sua ciuitate sine causa demi poterit nec ciuitatis iure mutandae uiri et feminae ius est ut matrimonio aetate idonea iungantur et familiam habeant nullo modo generi ciuitati religioni imposito quibus de nuptiis per nuptias nuptiis dirimendis paria iura nuptiae constitui possunt ipsis futuris coniugibus libere planeque consentientibus familia societatis nucleus naturalis et praecipuus ius utendi praesidio habet societatis et rei publicae sui quisque ipsius patrimonii atque inter alios communis potestatem habet homo nemo suis bonis ex arbitrio potest demi suae quisque libertatis potestatem habet cogitationis conscientiae religionis ita ut religionem uel sententiam mutet atque solus uel communiter in sacris docendis exercendis obseruandis publice et priuatim ea possit colere suae quisque ipsius libertatis potestatem habet et opinandi et loquendi de sua sententia nulla molestia affectus atque nuntios et opiniones indagandi accipiendi diuulgandi omnibus modis et nullis impedimentis suae quisque ipsius libertatis potestatem habet et iure et honeste conueniendi et congregandi homo nemo ut congregationi intersit potest cogi suae quisque rei publicae imperio intersit et per personam ipsam et per legatos sua sponte electos legibus ferendis sui quisque aditus potestatem habet ad rei publicae officia exaequatis condicionibus populi consensus principium est publicae potestatis qui consensus certis temporibus ueridicis et paribus omnium suffragiis per tabellam est declarandus uel pari iudicio liberi suffragii suae quisque ipsius incolumitatis uitae in hominum societate potestatem habet etiamque ciuium conatu et gentium auxilio pro singularum rerum publicarum temperatione et opibus operis ad rei familiaris et ciuilis curam et ad doctrinam pertinentis necessarii ad propriae personae dignitatem et maturitatem suae quisque ipsius industriae potestatem habet optionis munus soluendi aequis condicionibus oblatis atque nulla opera intermissa suae quisque mercedis nullo discrimine cum pari opera conuenientis potestatem habet quicumque in opera est aequae et idoneae remunerationis ius habet ita ut sibi et familiae pro humana dignitate tutam uitam prospiciat quae si oporteat aliis tutelae et fidei modis cumuletur suae quisque constitutionis propriae potestatem habet collegiorum operarum atque accessionis commoda defendendi causa sui quisque corporis et animi relaxationis ius habet aliquot horis profestis ennumeratis et diebus feriatis mercede persoluta suae quisque ipsius rationis uiuendae ius habet quod bonae et integrae ualetudini caueat commodo suo et familiae singulari cura uictus uestis domicilii et curationis munerum et societatis uitae officiorum utilium praeterea ius habet eiusdem tutelae si sine opere fuerit si in morbo inciderit si infirmus uiduus senex aut defectus a copiis inuitus gignendi tempus et puerilis aetas maxima cura custodienda sunt omnibus pueris et matrimonium et extra idem natis eadem est humanae societatis tutela suae quisque ipsius doctrinae ius habet quae de classibus puerilibus est gratuita et praecipua praeterea doctrina primaria uerum necessaria doctrina ad artem et munus pertinens ab omnibus intellegi debet denique ad ordinem superiorem aeque omnibus pro merito patens toti personae maturitati disciplina est dicanda iurum et libertatum confirmationi et rationi qua disciplina omnes gentes omnia genera omnes religiones intelligenda obseruanda amanda sunt atque officiis coniunctarum gentium fauendum ad pacem seruandam parentium potestas est ut disciplinas quibus liberi imbuantur elegant sui quisque ipsius arbitrii ita potestatem habet ut uitae ad societatis doctrinam pertinenti particeps sit et artibus perfruatur cum scientiae incrementis beneficiisque uehementer studeat suae quisque tutelae ius habet morum rationis utilitatis quae ex suis studiis scientiae litterarum artium efficiantur suae quisque ipsius disciplinae societatis et gentium qua eiusdem declarationis iura et libertates plane fieri possint potestatem habet omnibus hominibus ad sodalicium officium est praestandum quo modo mentes animique excoli possint sua quisque ipsius iura exercens et libertates derogationibus lege decretis afficiatur ad iurium aliorum et libertatum cognitionem et obsequium praestanda et ad morum legitimas necessitates explendas atque rei publicae tranquillitatis et communis commodi in populari societate contra coniunctarum gentium proposita et principia numquam haec iura et hae libertates exerceri possunt cuius declarationis nulla res ita potest putari ut quoddam ius exercendae operae uel faciendi facinoris detur cuiuis ciuitati aliquot hominibus uel uni e multis ut aliquot iurium et aliquot libertatum eiusdem labefactentur
The claculated entropies for this sample are: h1 = 3,95, h2 = 3,16 (both of which are notably higher than Voynich).
Let's now introduce some abbreviation to see the direction of how it affects the figures. Let's replace all word-starting "con" 's with "9". There are only 37 occurrences, so the influence will not be dramatic, but we'll observe the direction.
The results are: h1 = 3,96, h2 = 3,18.
Let's add more abbreviation and replace all word-ending "us" 's with "9" (which I think is another common Latin abbreviation). There are 100 occurrences.
The results would be: h1 = 3,99, h2 = 3,20.
So the tendence is that introducing abbreviation does increase both h1 and h2, not decrease it, as we would like.
What would decrease h1 is, e.g. expanding certain glyphs into sequences of other glyphs, which could still be visually detected and discerned from one another by a reader proficient in Latin. Returning to our original sample, let's expand all instances of "a" into "ci". There are 667 occurrences of "a", so we hope to see some effect.
The results are: h1 = 3,79, h2 = 2,99
So we have a decrease in both. Let's add some more expansion and replace "n" with "ii". I think that who knows the trick will still be able to read the original text from this. This is actually the same as the problem with interpreting Voynichese glyphs - i.e. is iin one glyph or three glyphs in succession.
Results: h1 = 3,54, h2 = 2,93
So while this expansion has a distinct effect on h1 (which is now lesser than Voynich), h2 still behaves more sluggishly. What will significantly reduce h2 would be, of course, introduction of nulls. Let's add, in the current sample, a "0" after each "e". There are 1018 occurrences, so the result would be immediate.
Results: h1 = 3,65, h2 = 2,66
Let's proceed further and add a null character "0" after each "t" in addition.
Results: h1 = 3,62, h2 = 2.57.
This indicates what might be the trick with Voynichese - spaces may be effectively "nulls" (should be ignored), plus some nulls are added after most frequent letters (or, probably, since the concept of letter frequency was not known back then, just a good deal of nulls is added without relation to a particular letter, but instead according to some pre-defined rule).
RE: Character entropy of Voynichese - Anton - 03-06-2018
As a further example, I just found the "Bennet" transcription of f1r. It is not a literal transcription by Bennett, it is a transcription of mine but using the alphabet that Bennett adopted for his studies. This was part of the work that I began but then neglected.
Code: fachyS ykal ar ytaM shol shor otoreS ykor sholdy
Sory ckhar ory kaN chtaM shor aN cthar cthar dan
SyaM sheky or ykaM shod cthoary ctheS daraM Sy
doM oteey oteor r oloty ct aar daM okaM or okan
Sairy chear cthaM cphar cfhaM ydaraishy
odar sy shol cphoy oydar sh S cfhoaM shodary
yshey shody okchoy otchol chocthy oSchy daN chor koS
daM shoS cfhol shody daN or teody
ydaN cpheSaM olS cphey ytaN shoshy cphodaleS
oksho kshoy otairN oteol okan shodaN S ckhhy daM
shoy ckhey kodaM cphy cphodaiilS cthhy sho oldan d
daN oM chol odaM chodaN chdy okaN dan cthy kod
daM shckhey ckhor char shey kolchol cholkor chal
sho chol chodan kshy kchy dor chodaM sho keeoin
ycho tchey chekaN sheopshol dydyd cthy daiithy
yto shol she kodchey cphealy daraN daN ckhydS
dchar shcthaM okaMchey rchycpotol ctholS daocty
shok chor chey daN ckhey otol daiM
cpho shaM shokcheey chol ksodeeSy shey pydeey chy ro dar
ydoN chol daN cthal dar shear kaM dar shey cthar
cho So kaM shoaM okol daM far cthol daM ctholdar
ycheey okaS oky daM okchey kokaM okchol koachy dal
dcheo shody khshhy cthy okchey keey keeydal chtor
cho chol chok choty chotey dchaM
After normalization (remove linebreaks), we have h1 = 3.84, h2 = 2.14, h1-h2 = 1.7.
If we remove all spaces, we get h1 = 3.85, h2 = 2.34, h1-h2 = 1.51.
RE: Character entropy of Voynichese - Anton - 03-06-2018
If we additionally remove all o, which sometimes is suggested to be a null, then we have h1 = 3.79, h2 = 2.43, h1-h2 = 1.36. This is slightly better, but far not good (as compared with natural languages).
Technically, what one could do in this direction is try to remove different characters and see how it affects h1-h2, in an attempt to detect the possible null. (It's unlikely that a medieval scholar would use more than one character for a null). But the results will of course depend on transcription, so different transcriptions need be considered.
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