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+--- Thread: Numbering Quire and pages (/thread-1472.html)
RE: Numbering Quire and pages - Koen G - 04-12-2018
What I find worrying in this particular example is that there might be a link with the person who (presumably later) wrote the y-like g at the bottom of the page. Looks more like a later owner tampering with the text.
RE: Numbering Quire and pages - -JKP- - 04-12-2018
If you look at the quire numbers, you might notice that they are written like the person was used to handling a brush. People learn to hold brushes and quills in a certain way when they have traditional training.
The VMS text does not tend to have this characteristic. The pen is not held at quite the right angle to create professional calligraphic text and does not have many brush-like qualities either.
But... the quire numbers are different...
There isn't much to go on, as far as the quire numbers are concerned, but the little bit that exists hints at someone who has learned to use and "sweep" a brush. Look at the long tails and especially the initial hook on the number 5 in the 5th quire marking. You can also see it in the 14th quire mark. Look at the way the 4 is drawn. It is two "sweeps" of the quill (the person used a quill like a brush). It hints at someone who was trained in drawing (or at least had some practice or skill in drawing) rather than in calligraphy. Script is more "measured" and the stems and loops are not usually "swept" unless it's the ornate kind of calligraphy.
The folio numbers, in contrast, are very standard, very mainstream.
RE: Numbering Quire and pages - ReneZ - 04-12-2018
Folio 114v is one of the clear cases where text was almost certainly not written in a line-by-line manner (at least for some parts), though the exact order of writing is still to be figured out.
JKP is absolutely right on this general topic, and this is something that can only be clear to people who have looked at the text very closely, e.g. while transcribing it.
However, the specific (and interesting) example of Wladimir does not really bear any signs of later additions.
The 'y' character in this word is represented as Eva code 189. I could not find it back in GC's transcription alphabet (v101).
RE: Numbering Quire and pages - ChenZheChina - 05-12-2018
(04-12-2018, 11:56 AM)Koen Gh. Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.But isn't Zhe right that the "ij" part in Xij could be what is meant in f57v, in other words, this is just the Roman numeral for 2? The whole reason why the letter j came to exist was for creating contrast in "ii" clusters.
That would leave the macron to be explained, which might be instead of the two dots or indicating an ordinal number?
Yes, what I thought was the ȳ on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. might be similar to ii of Xii.
And I thought that the macron was just a decorated, exaggerated, or connected version of dots.
That’s why I thought that it might be 2.
(04-12-2018, 12:10 PM)-JKP- Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I don't think this is a macron. I know it looks like it, but some scribes wrote "g" like that and the letter "y" was almost non-existent at the time. It would be less common to see a y with a macron (or ij or ÿ with a macron).
I posted examples on another thread. I'll try to find them.
Okay, some examples. I didn't search hard for these, I know I have better ones (ones that are closer), but these were the ones I was able to grab quickly. The scribe writes a y-shape and then adds the line and the line is often disconnected from the lower part of the letter:
Especially notice how the tail swings far to the left. When it was ij or ÿ this was not usual, it was usually more vertical. The g tail often swung far left.
But yes, it also look like these “g”s you posted. So it may not be Roman numeral II, but lowercase g.
RE: Numbering Quire and pages - Wladimir D - 05-12-2018
On f37v, there is an example that is transcribed by many researchers as a defective “y”, since it is preceded by “d”. But, if we look at examples 37v and 114v together, we can assume that there was an attempt to attach the “)” bracket to the lower end of the “c” (at 37v) and to the “i” (at 114v).
RE: Numbering Quire and pages - -JKP- - 05-12-2018
In the clip it looks like the top is light and faded the same way the bottom end of the tail is party light and faded. It might have been a badly mixed batch of ink, or maybe something oily on the surface of the skin?
RE: Numbering Quire and pages - Helmut Winkler - 05-12-2018
i rather believe that the Voynich author had the problem from time to time to express something that was not covered by the normal stock of glyphs
RE: Numbering Quire and pages - ChenZheChina - 05-12-2018
(05-12-2018, 08:35 AM)Wladimir D Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.On f37v, there is an example that is transcribed by many researchers as a defective “y”, since it is preceded by “d”. But, if we look at examples 37v and 114v together, we can assume that there was an attempt to attach the “)” bracket to the lower end of the “c” (at 37v) and to the “i” (at 114v).
Wladimir, Very interesting!
Yes, following EVA-d, it is highly possible that the unknown character is actually a defective EVA-y.
But the mysterious character on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. still remains unsolved. I don’t know any EVA character that looks like EVA-i plus the second stroke of EVA-y. Sad.
RE: Numbering Quire and pages - nablator - 05-12-2018
(04-12-2018, 11:24 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I could not find it back in GC's transcription alphabet (v101).'§', ASCII 167.
RE: Numbering Quire and pages - ReneZ - 05-12-2018
(05-12-2018, 12:04 PM)nablator Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.(04-12-2018, 11:24 PM)ReneZ Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I could not find it back in GC's transcription alphabet (v101).'§', ASCII 167.
Indeed. Remarkable.