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+--- Thread: Quire 13 (/thread-146.html)
RE: Quire 13 - Linda - 27-12-2020
Hi everyone,
Well it is pretty obvious that there are still a lot of differing views on quire 13. Here's mine.
I think it is one basically contiguous depiction of the flow of the waters of the world, and that we all are connected by it, but you won't be able to follow colours or even tubes to fully match things up, it is only through positional context that things join together from one page to the next. It is almost completely out of order, however, and full of mnemonics. I think it was intended as a tool to be able to remember portolan chart information and be able to recreate them in great detail.
The blue and green i agree are liquids. For me, they are water, mineralized (salt) green, and fresh blue, which can also be from the mountains or the sky, hence the vapour denoted by the nebuly lines and condensation re blue piles of rocks. Not all connections are literal, the thin blue streams certainly are not, they are just connectors, as in the water from here is the same water as there, and you can travel from one to another, but not in the way shown. It is a random line drawn between the two as an obfuscation. However, once you understand that is what they mean, it helps to know what is same water as what, in order to be able to see it for what it is (usually two smaller seas within a larger one or other smaller parts of a sea like bays. The thin blue lines are simply not there and the things they connect are not in correct orientation nor proximity to one another, and there may be size changes. Thus You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is not what it looks like at all, there is no flow per se from one to the other, no process, only a connection. Tubes, however, which are navigable rivers, and mountain rivers, like You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. at the top, as well as river valleys, like the double rainbows on f82v, are usually pretty close to the right shape and placement, as are the water bodies, although there is still a lot of hiding things in plain sight.
I am about to post my interpretation of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. bottom. i hope you will take a look and let me know what you think. I am not against other ideas being hidden within the quire at the same time, is your view and mine compatible? If yours require rebinding the quire into two quires, then it will likely be incompatible. If yours require no rebinding, it will also be incompatible.
RE: Quire 13 - bi3mw - 28-12-2020
I noticed something while reviewing Q13 that I hadn't seen before. It seems so trivial that you don't even notice it: Not all nymphs are standing in a tube or basin, a few are standing on it. It doesn't matter if they have liquid under their feet or not ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (2x), You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (4x), You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1x) ).
I believe that it is important how the nymphs stand although I have no idea what it is all about.
RE: Quire 13 - Searcher - 28-12-2020
(28-12-2020, 06:45 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I noticed something while reviewing Q13 that I hadn't seen before. It seems so trivial that you don't even notice it: Not all nymphs are standing in a tube or basin, a few are standing on it. It doesn't matter if they have liquid under their feet or not ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (2x), You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (4x), You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. (1x) ).
I believe that it is important how the nymphs stand although I have no idea what it is all about.
Actually I wouldn't surprised if it is so. The same as the nymphs in the Zodiac circles: 80 human figures are in tubs, two – on tubs and two more – behind tubes/tubs.
Nymphs in tubs: 10 - in the horisontal ones, 70 - in the vertical ones.
One female figure (in Gemini) is depicted standing in a pool, the next two figures (dressed male) are depicted standing on the horizontal tubes/tubs.
One of the nymphs (in Virgo) is depicted standing in a tub.
There are two rough tubes behind two human figures (Sagittarius).
Supposing Quire 13 to display some actions with liquids, we can also assume that the nymphs show their state and behavior.
Calm nymphs (quietly sitting, directed in one direction) can mean a calm, stable state in the liquid, nymphs directed in different directions, randomly waving their hands, fighting nymphs can reflect some kind of violent struggle process inside the liquid. So, the position of the nymph relative to a tub can also have any meaning, but I'm not yet ready to guess which one.
RE: Quire 13 - Linda - 28-12-2020
That's a good observation, bi3mw.
I think the difference between standing overtop and being submerged is that in all these examples, the waterbody in question (being stood upon) is not a standalone body, it is a part of a larger body that is being discussed.
For instance, i believe the one on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. is the Gulf of Lion, the shoreline represented from Cartagena to Genoa is actually pretty straight besides this gulf and the promontory at Valencia, which is also dealt with, so it is a way to indicate this while obfuscating the true shape of the shoreline. If they had then wanted to discuss the bay itself, they would have drawn it larger and filled it with nymphs standing for the other important regions within it. As it stands, it is not the topic at hand, just a part of its description, a mnemonic for drawing the shoreline differently at that point.
The ones on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are the Gibraltar strait and bay respectively, but it is more important that we are talking about the area between the Atlantic and the Mediterranean, opposing Africa; the bay itself isn't what makes Gibraltar what it is, per se, plus it is tiny in comparison to the region discussed. The clashing rocks on the bottom indicate to me a bosphorus, which is much more indicative of Gibraltar's place in the world (even though the bosphorus that the original clashing rocks, (or Symplegades), indicated are elsewhere in time and place, but do have the correlation to Pillars of Hercules connotation of Gibraltar and Ceuta, (Hercules was one of the Argonauts) and the name of nearby Gades or Cadiz, which also has a Pillars connection).
The ones on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. are reservoirs, bays, and deltas of the Tigris Euphrates river system.
When the nymphs are submerged, it is the water body they are in that makes up the greater community that is being discussed in that diagram.
RE: Quire 13 - bi3mw - 28-12-2020
I also noticed that four of the nymphs in Q13 are wearing a red "headband".
Edit: here are three more blue ones. I wouldn't be surprised if there were also green ones.
RE: Quire 13 - Searcher - 28-12-2020
(28-12-2020, 10:48 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.I also noticed that four of the nymphs in Q13 are wearing a red "headband".Of course. You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.
...
Edit: here are three more blue ones. I wouldn't be surprised if there were also green ones.
...
RE: Quire 13 - bi3mw - 29-12-2020
This finding could lead to the assumption that the nymphs themselves are partly the embodiment of "substances". The "headband" could be a kind of marker in which state the individual nymph is currently.
For example, the red "headband" could stand for heating, not only a state but a process.
RE: Quire 13 - Searcher - 29-12-2020
(29-12-2020, 01:44 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.This finding could lead to the assumption that the nymphs themselves are partly the embodiment of "substances". The "headband" could be a kind of marker in which state the individual nymph is currently.The matter is that it depends on that how many color must be considered: three or four, i. e., green, blue and red or these three plus yellow. It is unclear, but it seems that some nymphs have yellow ribbons or veils. Possibly it is somehow connected with four colors of the four animals on f79v. If it turns so that the animals represent the four elements, then four colors of the headresses of the nymphs can indicate the same.
For example, the red "headband" could stand for heating, not only a state but a process.
JKP mentioned in another thread different kinds of crowns in the Book of the Holy Trinity. They are seven (eighth one is possibly just a part of the double crown, but it must be checked in the text), and they corresponds to the seven planets and, possibly, the seven stages of the Great Work. So, there is a difference as the VMs nymphs have only three crowns, but I want to note that Quire 13 while not including any obvious crown, contains three finger rings: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - the yellow/gold ring; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - the red ring; You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. - probably, white ring. I wonder whether they have connection to the crowns in the Zodiac chapter.
RE: Quire 13 - bi3mw - 30-12-2020
It is of course also a possibility to see the colors as elements. I tend rather to regard green and blue as liquid substances and yellow as solid substance ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ). But red would be fire/heating in any case. So there would be four components instead of four elements. I base my assumption on the observation that green and blue are indeed both liquids.
As for the great work, as far as I know, in the late Middle Ages there was a reduction from four to three levels ( the yellowing was dropped ). The division into seven or even twelve levels is of course also possible but does not have to be. I have found in my recent research even a very "simple" recipe from the late Middle Ages that is translated from Greek to German just eight (!) Lines of text long. All that is used is mercury, sulfur, "clay of art" ( ? ) and some pure gold (1:10). So gold making was sometimes very quick and easy
I'm not saying that in Q13 necessarily the great work is shown. There are also some other options, for example "aqua ignea rectivicata" or "aqua vitae". One was usually content with the four times distillation for ordinary remedies.
RE: Quire 13 - Searcher - 30-12-2020
(30-12-2020, 05:41 PM)bi3mw Wrote: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view.It is of course also a possibility to see the colors as elements. I tend rather to regard green and blue as liquid substances and yellow as solid substance ( You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login to view. ). But red would be fire/heating in any case. So there would be four components instead of four elements. I base my assumption on the observation that green and blue are indeed both liquids.
Unfortunately, I'm not a good expert in alchemy, but, on my view, it's not necessary that the color of the pools means the same as the color of little details such as ribbons, veils, rings, etc.. I also see them as substances, the rest seems to me to show processes and properties of every single case. They may show exhalation, smoke, boiling, mixing, separation, coagulation, precipitation and so on.
Quote:As for the great work, as far as I know, in the late Middle Ages there was a reduction from four to three levels ( the yellowing was dropped ). The division into seven or even twelve levels is of course also possible but does not have to be. I have found in my recent research even a very "simple" recipe from the late Middle Ages that is translated from Greek to German just eight (!) Lines of text long. All that is used is mercury, sulfur, "clay of art" ( ? ) and some pure gold (1:10). So gold making was sometimes very quick and easy
Every alchemist had his own mythology and recipe.
Quote:I'm not saying that in Q13 necessarily the great work is shown. There are also some other options, for example "aqua ignea rectivicata" or "aqua vitae". One was usually content with the four times distillation for ordinary remedies.
I 'm not ready to judge what it is exactly, but looking to the whole content of the ms, I think it may likelly relate to distillations and making herbal extracts, elixirs... that Paracelsus later called Iatrochemistry.